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| 05:14:30 | <mhausenblas> | morning, Web of Data |
| 05:14:43 | <PovAddict> | this place has been quiet for hours |
| 05:15:25 | <mhausenblas> | ACTION sorry for disturbing the sound of silence :D |
| 05:16:07 | <PovAddict> | heh |
| 05:52:01 | <KickAssClown> | I welcome the disturbance. |
| 09:04:56 | <mhausenblas> | hi timbl - did you see the questions from http://esw.w3.org/topic/WebAccessControl/Vocabulary ? I'd appreciate your comments very much ... |
| 09:05:08 | <mhausenblas> | hehe |
| 09:22:59 | <gsnedders> | ACTION wonders what a sanely quick SPARQL query engine in Python exists |
| 09:31:36 | <mhausenblas> | gsnedders: did you check out http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/impl-report-ql ? |
| 09:32:58 | <gsnedders> | That doesn't however give performance |
| 09:33:52 | <gsnedders> | ACTION ponders just requiring Jython for this one script and using ARQ |
| 09:34:13 | <mhausenblas> | right |
| 09:34:46 | <gsnedders> | I mean, even with the JVM start-up overhead, it would still be a lot quicker overall |
| 09:34:53 | <mhausenblas> | there is a Python impl listed at http://esw.w3.org/topic/SparqlImplementations |
| 09:35:34 | <gsnedders> | (rdflib takes around 2 minutes to run, ARQ runs it in around 2s, so 2s to start the JVM v. 80ms to start CPython is not really relevant) |
| 09:35:55 | <mhausenblas> | and both Wikier and IvanHerman are often around here as well, so they may be able to help |
| 09:35:55 | <gsnedders> | mhausenblas: Yeah, it's slow :) |
| 09:36:04 | <mhausenblas> | ah |
| 09:36:45 | <mhausenblas> | yep, ARQ seems a good option, then |
| 09:37:08 | <mhausenblas> | Python would be good to have, though - Google is building on it as you know ... |
| 09:37:54 | <gsnedders> | Though the real answer is this is gonna be run so rarely perf. isn't really a major consideration :) |
| 09:38:10 | <mhausenblas> | hehe |
| 09:38:41 | <gsnedders> | I mean it involves (otherwise) fetching plain XML from rfc-editor's FTP, which is _really_ slow. |
| 09:39:06 | <mhausenblas> | hu. what are you working on? |
| 09:40:31 | <gsnedders> | Oh, just thinking about optimizing what I was working on before (creating biblio database) |
| 09:40:45 | <mhausenblas> | ah, right. btw, gsnedders, did you see Roy's blog post http://roy.gbiv.com/untangled/2009/wrangling-mimetypes ? |
| 09:41:01 | <gsnedders> | mhausenblas: I don't think so |
| 09:41:13 | <mhausenblas> | have a read. fun. |
| 09:41:32 | <gsnedders> | ACTION needs to draw the curtains so he isn't boiling and blinded |
| 09:42:03 | <mhausenblas> | where tf are you. bahamas? ;) |
| 09:42:09 | <gsnedders> | Having a more or less due south facing window behind computer isn't nice :) |
| 09:42:22 | <gsnedders> | mhausenblas: No, that sunny place called Scotland. I mean, it's always sunny here! :P |
| 09:42:43 | <mhausenblas> | ACTION thinks so as well. at least as sunny as glory Ireland :D |
| 09:43:10 | <gsnedders> | The east coast is drier than western Italy :P |
| 09:43:35 | <mhausenblas> | yeah |
| 09:45:12 | <gsnedders> | mhausenblas: Heh. Roy is more or less right. There are a few IANA registries that can be machine read, though |
| 09:45:47 | <mhausenblas> | well, could be more, though ;) |
| 09:46:11 | <gsnedders> | Oh, certainly. And some things like http://www.iana.org/assignments/character-sets aren't fun to machine-parse. |
| 09:46:34 | <mhausenblas> | hehe |
| 09:46:52 | <gsnedders> | http://www.iana.org/assignments/link-relations/link-relations.xml — look ma, it's XML! |
| 09:47:10 | <gsnedders> | Oh, yeah. Bots that take URIs at the start of messages, fun. |
| 09:47:52 | <mhausenblas> | A:| Atom Link Relations by IANA |
| 09:48:17 | <mhausenblas> | A: look ma, it's XML (by gsnedders ;) |
| 09:48:27 | <gsnedders> | :D |
| 09:48:46 | <gsnedders> | You can tell I'm always sensible. |
| 09:49:18 | <gsnedders> | mhausenblas: http://xkcd.com/541/ |
| 09:50:03 | <mhausenblas> | lol |
| 09:51:10 | <mhausenblas> | ACTION notes that one can replace every comment by simply saying A1: text ;) |
| 09:51:44 | <mhausenblas> | A1: look ma, it's XML (by gsnedders from sunny Scotland) |
| 09:51:49 | <mhausenblas> | :D |
| 09:52:01 | <gsnedders> | ACTION wonders if this is really productive |
| 09:52:15 | <mhausenblas> | no. it isn't. who said it would be |
| 09:52:18 | <Hory> | just curios, why doesn't the FOAF vocabulary have inverse properties? |
| 09:52:24 | <Hory> | such as "memberOf", not just "member" |
| 09:52:49 | <mhausenblas> | Hory: danbri wrote about that recently. lemme check ... |
| 09:53:01 | <gsnedders> | mhausenblas: Bob |
| 09:54:02 | <mhausenblas> | gsnedders: ? |
| 09:54:12 | <Hory> | thanks |
| 09:56:38 | <gsnedders> | mhausenblas: He said it would be. I don't know who, but he said so. |
| 09:58:02 | <mhausenblas> | ACTION confused, gsnedders Bob said what? |
| 09:58:13 | <gsnedders> | mhausenblas: Oh, just ignore me |
| 09:58:20 | <mhausenblas> | ok :) |
| 09:58:41 | <mhausenblas> | Hory: just found http://lists.foaf-project.org/pipermail/foaf-dev/2009-January/009452.html |
| 09:59:16 | <mhausenblas> | however, IIRC there was a more recent discussion where danbri explained the rational behind it ... |
| 09:59:20 | <mhausenblas> | danbri around? |
| 10:01:04 | <Hory> | thanks, I'm reading it |
| 10:01:17 | <Hory> | want to decide if I should add inverses to my vocabulary or not |
| 10:01:41 | <mhausenblas> | Hory: not necessarily |
| 10:02:32 | <mhausenblas> | Hory: see for example http://dowhatimean.net/2006/06/an-rdf-design-pattern-inverse-property-labels |
| 10:04:56 | <Hory> | thank you again |
| 10:05:11 | <mhausenblas> | yw |
| 10:07:27 | <Hory> | but it's only possible to define anonymous properties at code level, right? |
| 10:07:34 | <Hory> | how would I do in in Protege? |
| 10:09:23 | <mhausenblas> | Hory: don't do Protege ;) |
| 10:09:44 | <Hory> | not using a visual editor is masochism :) |
| 10:10:05 | <mhausenblas> | using Protege is even greater masochism ;) |
| 10:10:33 | <mhausenblas> | seriously, if you don't wanna hand-code low-level use Neologism or such |
| 10:10:57 | <mhausenblas> | (if you want to do it the Web way) |
| 10:12:56 | <mhausenblas> | or http://www.knoodl.com or TopBraid Composer ... |
| 10:12:58 | <Hory> | damn it, FOAF stole "knows" |
| 10:13:07 | <mhausenblas> | from whom? :) |
| 10:13:10 | <Hory> | it is possible to know other things, not just persons |
| 10:13:22 | <Hory> | from the list of english words used in vocabularies :) |
| 10:13:58 | <mhausenblas> | not in FOAF (range is foaf:Person) |
| 10:14:03 | <mhausenblas> | but what's the problem? |
| 10:14:05 | <Hory> | would it be wrong to add foaf:knows to my vocabulary but change the range from Person to Thing? |
| 10:14:14 | <mhausenblas> | yes |
| 10:14:27 | <mhausenblas> | but you can invent your own prop for that |
| 10:14:39 | <mhausenblas> | my:knows |
| 10:14:47 | <Hory> | oh |
| 10:14:54 | <mhausenblas> | with domain foaf:Person and range owl:Thing |
| 10:14:57 | <mhausenblas> | for example |
| 10:15:10 | <Hory> | I thought maybe I shouldn't use the same property name |
| 10:15:16 | <Hory> | then it's great |
| 10:15:32 | <mhausenblas> | and then, if you like, say, foaf:knows rdfs:subPropertyOf my:knows |
| 10:15:43 | <mhausenblas> | that's the power of having namespaces |
| 10:16:10 | <mhausenblas> | the two knows don't interfere as they are placed in different namespaces |
| 10:16:19 | <mhausenblas> | for example there are many Datasets out there |
| 10:16:37 | <mhausenblas> | .g dublin core type dataset |
| 10:16:38 | <phenny> | mhausenblas: http://dublincore.org/documents/dcmi-type-vocabulary/ |
| 10:16:48 | <mhausenblas> | .g void dataset |
| 10:16:49 | <phenny> | mhausenblas: http://community.linkeddata.org/MediaWiki/index.php?VoiD |
| 10:16:52 | <mhausenblas> | nah |
| 10:17:02 | <mhausenblas> | .g void dataset vocabulary |
| 10:17:03 | <phenny> | mhausenblas: http://rdfs.org/ns/void |
| 10:17:05 | <mhausenblas> | yep |
| 10:18:12 | <mhausenblas> | so we have for examle stated that void:Dataset rdfs:subClassOf dcmi:Dataset |
| 10:18:17 | <mhausenblas> | no problem at all |
| 10:18:44 | <mhausenblas> | just be aware that re reasoning there can be implications (not currently but in future) |
| 10:20:07 | <mhausenblas> | see for example the paper of my colleagues on Authoritative Reasoning for the Web (http://sw.deri.org/~aidanh/docs/saor_aswc08.pdf) |
| 10:20:50 | <KickAssClown> | mhausenblas, What are some protocols and/or procedures that you would recommend for learning to write RDF schema? |
| 10:21:10 | <mhausenblas> | learning or using in a productive environment? :) |
| 10:22:06 | <KickAssClown> | I fail to parse your question, could you rephrase it please? |
| 10:22:43 | <mhausenblas> | do you really mean to learn how to do that? |
| 10:23:00 | <mhausenblas> | or do you rather mean how to use it effectively in a production environment? |
| 10:23:29 | <KickAssClown> | I mean learning in the sense of I learn what I do, and what I want to do is write RDF schema. |
| 10:23:41 | <mhausenblas> | ok, then I'd start with http://www.w3.org/2000/10/swap/Primer.html |
| 10:24:07 | <mhausenblas> | one should be able to read and write N3 or at least Turtle, IMHO |
| 10:24:42 | <mhausenblas> | then you could move over to a web-based solution such as knoodl, neologism or open.vocab.org, etc. |
| 10:25:18 | <mhausenblas> | where in the first step you learn about the basics (classes, props, etc.) and then you focus on the modelling task itself |
| 10:27:09 | <mhausenblas> | what I often do (but don't tell anyone, it is not very academic ;) is to create some instance data and then pull the schema out of it |
| 10:27:40 | <mhausenblas> | wherever I find existing vocabularies I'll use them and only in few cases I've to invent my own terms (classes or properties) |
| 10:28:10 | <KickAssClown> | mhausenblas, I know this will sound backwards, and in a manner of speaking it is, I start with the thing to be accomplished and move towards the beginning. Stopping along the way to learn the things which I don't know as I encounter them. |
| 10:28:38 | <mhausenblas> | ah, interesting. example? |
| 10:29:03 | <KickAssClown> | I want to learn Game theory |
| 10:29:17 | <KickAssClown> | or better, quantum mechanics. |
| 10:29:31 | <KickAssClown> | I obtained a book about the subject. |
| 10:29:42 | <KickAssClown> | Opened it and read the first chapter, to the best of my ability. |
| 10:31:11 | <KickAssClown> | What I descerned was I needed to be able to read probability curves, matrix notations, vector notations, combinatorial, series notations, and I needed to be able to evaluate the expressions from beginning to end. |
| 10:32:09 | <KickAssClown> | I understand matrices and vectors in a limited fashion because of reading through my physics book and my own interest in learning the things which teachers have told me I'd never need to know in my entire life. |
| 10:32:50 | <mhausenblas> | ok |
| 10:33:06 | <KickAssClown> | The things which I don't understand are probability, combinatorics, permutations, and series notations. Particularly series notations related to curves, IE Calculus. |
| 10:33:43 | <KickAssClown> | I don't understand in the sense that I can't evaluate or read the notations expressed in the book. |
| 10:34:41 | <KickAssClown> | Which lead me to examine the types of mathematical studies which deal most heavily with those things: Game Theory. |
| 10:35:37 | <KickAssClown> | That pushed me to learn about the foundations of mathematics and of discrete mathematics, statistics, and intelligent systems. |
| 10:36:08 | <KickAssClown> | Which met with my programming pursuits and artificial intelligence. |
| 10:36:33 | <mhausenblas> | right. I understand (I think ;) |
| 10:36:41 | <KickAssClown> | Now I need to fill in the gap between me and quantum mechanics. |
| 10:37:03 | <mhausenblas> | and there Semantic Web can help? :) |
| 10:37:20 | <KickAssClown> | because I've found both the equilibrium point and the gaps, hills, and valleys along the path. |
| 10:37:22 | <mhausenblas> | ACTION wondering where KickAssClown has picked up his nickname |
| 10:37:23 | <KickAssClown> | Yes |
| 10:37:34 | <KickAssClown> | My nickname is ironic. |
| 10:37:45 | <KickAssClown> | Most people will parse it one way reliably. |
| 10:38:10 | <KickAssClown> | Chances are, I don't want to talk to or interact with the people who would judge a book by it's cover. |
| 10:38:27 | <mhausenblas> | that's fiar, yes |
| 10:38:43 | <mhausenblas> | s/fiar/fair |
| 10:39:14 | <KickAssClown> | The correct parse is Kick (verb) Ass (type of donkey) Clown (a humorous fool that makes comedy of situations, practises, and perceptions) |
| 10:40:09 | <KickAssClown> | Also, at the time of me picking it, I was the only one on the surface web who seems to have the moniker. |
| 10:40:36 | <KickAssClown> | Google my nickname and You'll find that I am about the only person which results are returned for. |
| 10:41:16 | <mhausenblas> | I don't doubt that :) |
| 10:43:42 | <gsnedders> | Google my full name (in quotes) and virtually nothing else comes up |
| 10:44:02 | <mhausenblas> | gsnedders: your full name is way to long ;) |
| 10:44:17 | <gsnedders> | s/full name/my first and last name/ |
| 10:45:18 | <mhausenblas> | google suggests Seddon ;) |
| 10:45:30 | <mhausenblas> | (with your middle name) |
| 10:45:47 | <gsnedders> | heh |
| 10:47:15 | <mhausenblas> | yep seems my nick also is not too bad ;) |
| 10:48:31 | <mhausenblas> | ACTION BRB |
| 10:55:10 | <tommorris> | ACTION parses KickAssClown's name as a clown which kicks ass and an imperative seeking the kicking of a particular donkey clown |
| 10:56:23 | <KickAssClown> | The semantic web ultimately is a way of arranging and associating data with itself. As part of my studies of intelligent systems, language has become the prominent means of expressing an intelligent system. Towards that end, I'm attempting to define a language for developing and analyzing languages. Which in turn returns to a web of semantics. |
| 10:57:00 | <KickAssClown> | tommorris, both of your parses are correct. |
| 10:57:35 | <KickAssClown> | Simple principle of iteration: Fail fast, fail first, fail often. |
| 10:57:52 | <tommorris> | or indeed, i could parse it as the kicking of a clown who has been described as an ass. but I prefer the idea of it being a donkey clown. |
| 10:59:08 | <tommorris> | ooh, radio wales had a programme about one of my favourite libraries this morning. |
| 10:59:26 | <KickAssClown> | Cool, what was it about? |
| 11:00:05 | <tommorris> | here - http://www.st-deiniols.com/ |
| 11:01:45 | <tommorris> | a library built from the collection of William Gladstone, now serving people interested in Victorian history, theology and all sorts of other stuff |
| 11:03:14 | <tommorris> | I'm a total library snob: I really dislike all these modern glass-fronted things the government wastes money on with lots of open spaces, MTV listening posts and community stuff. Libraries need books, and lots of 'em. |
| 11:04:14 | <KickAssClown> | I think we can benefit greatly from adopting a multi-modal media library model, personally. |
| 11:06:00 | <KickAssClown> | I know some people read a lot, read a lot of books. I find that most of my media consumption is electronic in nature. I listen to lots of music, read many articles online, discuss topics of interest on forums and in chat rooms, watch movies and films, and play many many games. |
| 11:08:00 | <KickAssClown> | If I had the money, I would commission a library to be built using arcades, movie theatres, lan-party internet cafes, exploratoriums/amusuems, and traditional book libraries as models. |
| 11:10:56 | <KickAssClown> | I would put together thematic portions of the library like a Monopoly playcenter with books relevant to the robber barons, law related to anti-trust, economics, and socioeconomic philosophies. |
| 11:12:23 | <KickAssClown> | Particle bubble chambers and other physics experiments that you can see and interact with interlaced with shelves containing books relevant to the experiments, and games/simulations to model the things which are difficult to model physically. |
| 11:12:41 | <KickAssClown> | tommorris, sound like a library you might visit? |
| 11:16:20 | <KickAssClown> | Anyway, Thank you, mhausenblas. I appreciate the primer link. Good night everyone. |
| 13:08:33 | <Hory> | are the domains and ranges of subproperties inherited or do I have to specify them again? |
| 13:31:09 | <mhausenblas> | Hory: no you don't need to specify them again (as of http://www.w3.org/TR/rdf-mt/#RDFSRules) |
| 13:31:39 | <Hory> | hmm thanks |
| 14:29:48 | <KickAssClown> | mhausenblas, you still there? |
| 15:01:19 | <KickAssClown> | We have five dialects, one 5-cell pentachron built using the five dialects as the vertices, and all the relationships of all the dialects to one another form the edges of the shape. The RDF file defining the vertices and the edges would be the representation of the pentachron. It would seem definitions for the dialects would be prudent. A FOAF-style schema for the families of dialects, a schema for dialects, the file/implementat |
| 15:01:19 | <KickAssClown> | ion specifying the initial family, and the individual files/implementations specifying the five dialects? |
| 15:06:35 | <KickAssClown> | Any other details I should be considering at this step? |
| 16:47:50 | <mhausenblas> | logger, pointer |
| 16:47:50 | <logger> | See http://chatlogs.planetrdf.com/swig/2009-05-17#T16-47-58 |
| 16:47:54 | <mhausenblas> | http://ld2sd.deri.org/wacup/ |
| 16:48:27 | <mhausenblas> | B:| WACup, a WebAccessControl explorer/viewer for RDFa |
| 16:48:59 | <mhausenblas> | B: Client-side, implemented with jQuery/rdfquery |
| 16:49:19 | <mhausenblas> | B: click the top/right key icon to launch the widget |
| 16:49:36 | <mhausenblas> | B: hover over agents or resources to view access |
| 16:52:33 | <mhausenblas> | phenny, tell melvster see http://chatlogs.planetrdf.com/swig/2009-05-17#T16-47-58 |
| 16:52:34 | <phenny> | mhausenblas: I'll pass that on when melvster is around. |
| 16:54:50 | <tommorris> | heheh. just had a complete context-fuck. |
| 16:55:23 | <tommorris> | In the "Cambridge Companion to Postmodernism", timbl is mentioned in the chronology. |
| 16:55:49 | <tommorris> | "1989 Tim Berners-Lee develops concept of World Wide Web" |
| 16:56:00 | <tommorris> | An important event in the development of postmodernism, apparently. |
| 16:56:23 | <mhausenblas> | indeed! ;) |
| 16:56:50 | <mhausenblas> | nevertheless ... time to go ... |
| 16:56:55 | <KickAssClown> | Wait |
| 16:57:01 | <mhausenblas> | hu? |
| 16:57:13 | <KickAssClown> | Timbl = Tim Berners-Lee? |
| 16:57:18 | <mhausenblas> | yes |
| 16:57:52 | <KickAssClown> | mind = blown |
| 16:58:35 | <mhausenblas> | ACTION notes that this is after the confusion re Interface Generator maybe the #2 surprises for people that join #swig :D |
| 16:59:11 | <tommorris> | yes, there's a double-take moment when you realise it's *that* timbl. ;) |
| 16:59:27 | <mhausenblas> | ;) |
| 16:59:42 | <mhausenblas> | ok, anyways, gotta head out. take care and see ya all tomorrow |
| 16:59:47 | <KickAssClown> | Enjoy. |
| 16:59:55 | <mhausenblas> | ta. as well :) |
| 17:00:03 | <mhausenblas> | good nite Web of Data |
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