Available formats: content-negotiated html turtle (see SIOC for the vocabulary)
Back to channel and daily index: content-negotiated html turtle
These logs are provided as an experiment in indexing discussions using IRCHub.py, Irc2RDF.hs, and SIOC.
| 00:00:00 | <snail> | PovAddict: i can. it has been. but you're right, it shouldn't have been |
| 00:00:17 | <snail> | PovAddict: is there a particular problem you're tring to solve? |
| 00:00:29 | <PovAddict> | nope, just wondering... every single IDE seems to have its own |
| 00:00:35 | <snail> | s/tring/trying/ |
| 00:04:00 | <snail> | PovAddict: you may be interested in DOAP, and specifically the apache version http://projects.apache.org/doap.html |
| 00:04:21 | <snail> | but that's not really an IDE |
| 00:07:24 | <PovAddict> | it would be great if there was a single file format that could let you: |
| 00:07:28 | <PovAddict> | know information about the project |
| 00:07:34 | <PovAddict> | download the project source code |
| 00:07:48 | <PovAddict> | load the project source code into an IDE |
| 00:07:53 | <mattl> | FILE_ID.DIZ |
| 00:07:54 | <mattl> | ;) |
| 00:08:00 | <PovAddict> | download dependencies |
| 00:08:05 | <PovAddict> | and maybe even build it |
| 00:08:53 | <snail> | PovAddict: all but the IDE one are provided by the debian packaging format |
| 00:10:03 | <mattl> | and people don't really use IDEs to develop free software, with the exception of Java, maybe. |
| 00:10:38 | <PovAddict> | http://blogs.sun.com/bblfish/entry/replacing_ant_with_rdf |
| 00:12:02 | <PovAddict> | snail: can the debian packaging format build Windows software with Visual Studio? :) |
| 00:12:07 | <snail> | PovAddict: DOAP (mentioned in that article) is surprisingly widely used |
| 00:14:05 | <snail> | PovAddict: sure, check out wine |
| 00:20:00 | <Anchakor> | snail: Im sure he meant under windows... (cygwin? :)) |
| 00:23:52 | <MFen> | what should data on the web look like |
| 00:24:34 | <MFen> | what i mean is, what are most people expecting in terms of an API to access this data? random piles of REST? rdf/xml dumps of your database? some application-specific api? |
| 00:25:02 | <MFen> | well take as given that rdf/xml or n3 or something is a standard that everyone wants to use.. is there any concept of a standard for getting to it? |
| 00:38:03 | <Anchakor> | MFen: sparql endpoints |
| 00:40:07 | <drobilla> | sparql? |
| 00:40:32 | <snail> | Anchakor: debian ships with windows (X11 etc) |
| 00:41:06 | <snail> | drobilla: http://www.w3.org/TR/rdf-sparql-query/ |
| 00:42:05 | <snail> | MFen: Anchakor was right when they said sparq, it's pretty much the best way imaginable to allow access to data |
| 00:43:31 | <snail> | hmmm, confusingly, the sparql standard doesn't contain the expression 'endpoint' |
| 00:44:22 | <snail> | but a sparql endpoint is the web address of a sparql interface to an RDF database |
| 00:44:38 | <Anchakor> | MFen: for discovery of data (sparql endpoints) voiD is (should be) used: http://rdfs.org/ns/void-guide |
| 00:48:49 | <Anchakor> | http://www.lirmm.fr/~coletta/CaisePresentations/TutorialYAHOO.pdf |
| 00:49:18 | <Anchakor> | B:nice link I just found on crawling the web |
| 00:49:59 | <Anchakor> | B:comparison between distributed/centralized etc. |
| 00:50:46 | <drobilla> | snail: I know ;) |
| 00:55:38 | <Anchakor> | snail: debian ships with ms windows? news to me ;) |
| 01:00:19 | <MFen> | Anchakor: thanks, looking into this |
| 01:00:56 | <MFen> | i have actually encountered the term sparql endpoints before, but didn't know if i should care |
| 01:02:21 | <snail> | MFen: it's a bit like an JDBC connection in the relational world, except that it's connecting to a semantic database with a semantic query language |
| 01:03:15 | <MFen> | snail: does it address the wire protocol at all? |
| 01:04:15 | <snail> | MFen: I'm not sure what you mean by that, but use the accepts header to say what format you want the result set in |
| 01:04:40 | <snail> | and the normal http headers to say things like character set, etc, etc, etc |
| 01:05:00 | <MFen> | snail: i meant, does it specify http, and it sounds like it does :) |
| 01:08:10 | <snail> | http://rdfs.org/ns/void-guide is really interesting (and new to me) |
| 01:08:19 | <snail> | oops |
| 01:08:49 | <snail> | it seems like it much more likely to fly if someone wrote a stats-generator to generate all those stats though |
| 01:09:55 | <MFen> | ok, void already looks pretty awesome |
| 01:10:01 | <MFen> | i think this is exactly what i needed |
| 01:10:42 | <MFen> | *love* void:exampleResource. way more stuff should have that |
| 01:16:03 | <PovAddict> | <snail> Anchakor: debian ships with windows (X11 etc) <- he meant Microsoft Windows... |
| 01:16:05 | <PovAddict> | and I did too... |
| 01:16:28 | <PovAddict> | can you use a .deb to compile software with Visual Studio? wouldn't it depend on makefiles? |
| 01:16:46 | <mattl> | please please no. |
| 01:16:59 | <PovAddict> | also, debs identify dependencies with names, not with URIs to other debs like DOAP would do :D |
| 01:25:40 | <snail> | PovAddict: your statement implies that URIs are not names, which is false |
| 01:27:45 | <PovAddict> | 'libgtk-2.0' isn't globally-unique enough |
| 01:28:25 | <MFen> | it's not necessarily a good thing for that name to be globally unique |
| 01:29:10 | <PovAddict> | I can't grab a random .deb off the internet and install it with its dependencies |
| 01:29:25 | <mattl> | actually, you probably could. |
| 01:29:34 | <mattl> | assuming you're running Debian. |
| 01:30:28 | <PovAddict> | I grab a .deb from distroX and install it, but the dependency package names match the package names on distroY, and rely on peculiarities of how distroY built the programs? |
| 01:30:56 | <snail> | PovAddict: yeah, you can with debian, ubuntu, knoppix, etc, etc |
| 01:31:10 | <snail> | there might be some that are borken, but in general you can |
| 01:31:11 | <mattl> | no, ubuntu changes the names of things for some reason |
| 01:31:39 | <PovAddict> | are their packages compatible? I don't mean the dpkg format, I mean the *contents*... they have to be built with compatible C++ ABIs for example |
| 01:31:55 | <snail> | on my ubuntu i install random debs regularly, or is it the other way round it doesn't work |
| 01:31:58 | <MFen> | usually. if they're not, the dependency tree will usually exclude. |
| 01:32:21 | <Anchakor> | MFen: everything of inportance deserves an URI ( http://www.w3.org/TR/webarch/#identification ) |
| 01:32:22 | <snail> | PovAddict: yes, the contents of the packages are compatible |
| 01:32:53 | <PovAddict> | http://apt.saurik.com/debs/ <- there are probably package names there that match Debian package names and yet they'd be totally incompatible (if Debian supported darwin-arm at all :P) |
| 01:33:01 | <snail> | mattl: i suspect that maybe ubuntu uses a slightly different linking fomat |
| 01:33:40 | <MFen> | Anchakor: well, you could make the argument that those packages deserve URIs, all i'm saying is i can't say for sure whether the debian package architecture would still work if package names as used by apt became URIs |
| 01:34:31 | <PovAddict> | how do I "recursively" build a program and its dependencies from source? |
| 01:34:35 | <MFen> | PovAddict: the architecture is part of the metadata. lots of debs have "all" as the arch, explicitly so that you can use them on architectures for which they were not specifically built |
| 01:35:01 | <PovAddict> | I thought the automatic way installed binary dependencies and then built the program alone from source |
| 01:35:04 | <snail> | PovAddict: apt handles dependencies |
| 01:35:14 | <MFen> | PovAddict: sudo apt-get build-dep package is how you get its dependencies, i don't know of any tool that lets you build those all the way down to the bottom of the turtles |
| 01:35:43 | <PovAddict> | I heard "bootstrapping" Ubuntu repository is nearly impossible |
| 01:35:59 | <snail> | PovAddict: there are tools that let you do that (mainly for testing purposes) ask in a debian channel |
| 01:36:29 | <Anchakor> | MFen: my guess it wouldn't, uris contain some strange characters |
| 01:37:18 | <MFen> | Anchakor: nothing to do with syntax.. there are features of the debian system that are enabled by names being non-globally unique |
| 01:38:33 | <MFen> | systems like fink are based on apt and do rebuild the whole system |
| 01:38:50 | <MFen> | and that's practically a one-click installer on osx |
| 01:55:44 | <MFen> | bbl to discuss void and sparql endpoints.. gotta play D&D now |
| 06:42:40 | <mhausenblas> | good morning Web of Data |
| 07:06:49 | <mhausenblas> | WWW09 official opening. on the stage (among others): TimBL and Vinton Cerf |
| 07:09:23 | <mhausenblas> | hei kwijibo |
| 07:09:41 | <kwijibo> | hey mhausenblas , how was lwod ? |
| 07:09:41 | <phenny> | kwijibo: 21 Apr 09:05Z <danja__> tell kwijibo http://semwebdev.keithalexander.co.uk/blog/feed.atom = 406 Not Acceptable ..? |
| 07:10:11 | <mhausenblas> | cool, kwijibo |
| 07:10:12 | <kwijibo> | ta phenny |
| 07:10:14 | <mhausenblas> | all well |
| 07:10:32 | <kwijibo> | wish i could have seen you presentation |
| 07:10:38 | <kwijibo> | did anyone video ? |
| 07:10:58 | <mhausenblas> | no, I don't think so, but Jun told me that she'd like it ;) |
| 07:13:04 | <mhausenblas> | the WWW09 panel seems actually nice: Mike Shaver from Mozilla and Dale Dougherty from O'Reilly |
| 07:28:12 | <melvster> | hi all, question about SPARUL, it works via HTTP POST, i thought POST is normally name value pairs, but in this case it's just free text, e.g.: INSERT { <http://foaf.me/test> <http://xmlns.com/foaf/0.1/interest> "remote testing" . } is that a normal use of POST? |
| 07:28:30 | <melvster> | this is the datawiki impl. |
| 07:30:21 | <danja> | http://twitterwall.me/www2009 |
| 07:30:46 | <danja> | E:| Twitterwall for #www2009 |
| 07:30:55 | <danja> | E: (good scribing guys!) |
| 07:35:58 | <kwijibo> | melvster: i think so; you can also send regular SPARQL queries with POST according to the the sparql protocol |
| 07:37:18 | <dajobe> | yay, another TUrtle keynote reference |
| 07:38:41 | <melvster> | kwijibo: ah ok thanks, looks like an underused technique, i think it's called POST RAW in some texts |
| 07:39:27 | <kwijibo> | we use it in the talis platform api for uploading data to the store |
| 07:39:55 | <melvster> | talis is java? |
| 07:44:29 | <melvster> | this is quite a useful use of http_post i think im going to try and use it more often ... |
| 07:49:04 | <drewp> | ACTION reads http://n2.talis.com/wiki/Changesets and remembers the sesame/allegro/etc transaction xml format (http://www.franz.com/agraph/support/documentation/current/http-protocol.html#header3-67) |
| 08:02:52 | <mhausenblas> | panel discussion over, now questions from the audience |
| 08:03:30 | <mhausenblas> | JimH asked about how we can increase the outreach, enable more people to use the Web (currently like 20-30% of the world population) |
| 08:03:45 | <mhausenblas> | mobile access might be the preferred route |
| 08:07:10 | <melvster> | only 5% of africa use the web, intel have a project to get 50% online by 2015 |
| 08:08:59 | <melvster> | sorry that's AMD: http://50x15.amd.com/ |
| 08:11:21 | <melvster> | current penetration: 23.56% Pop: 6,748 Bn ; Internet Users: 1,589 Bn |
| 08:12:45 | <melvster> | stats: http://50x15.com/en-us/internet_usage.aspx |
| 08:26:51 | <mhausenblas> | right, melvster |
| 08:27:10 | <mhausenblas> | couldn't remember the precise figure anymore but that was is |
| 08:27:31 | <mhausenblas> | now her royal highness, the princess is comming |
| 08:27:40 | <mhausenblas> | a short ceremony I hope :) |
| 08:27:57 | <kwijibo> | princess ? |
| 08:28:11 | <mhausenblas> | lemme check the precise title ;) |
| 08:28:21 | <dajobe> | the heir to the spanish throne |
| 08:28:42 | <kwijibo> | really? weird |
| 08:29:03 | <mhausenblas> | 'Inauguration ceremony: The Princes of Asturias. Access forbidden between 10:15 and 10:30. ' |
| 08:29:10 | <mhausenblas> | from http://dragoman.org/2009program.html |
| 08:29:20 | <mhausenblas> | they would lock us down here in the room |
| 08:29:38 | <mhausenblas> | feels like 20000 photographers around ;) |
| 08:30:27 | <mhausenblas> | ACTION notes that Access forbidden is not 403, in this sense ;) |
| 08:30:37 | <kwijibo> | lol - I did wonder ;) |
| 08:36:04 | <mhausenblas> | wow, should brush up my Spanish |
| 08:36:29 | <mhausenblas> | I wonder if they would be so nice to switch over to English |
| 08:36:43 | <mhausenblas> | now, this is cool |
| 08:37:00 | <mhausenblas> | the one guy who talks now (in Spanish) |
| 08:37:19 | <mhausenblas> | and we get a nice slide projected on the wall and are supposed to read this? |
| 08:37:53 | <mhausenblas> | I wonder if the prince and the princess at least speak English |
| 08:40:30 | <mhausenblas> | I can't believe it - he *is* able to speak English! ;) |
| 08:42:51 | <mhausenblas> | so, the next speaker did it the other way round. said two sentences in English and the rest of the talk in Spanish |
| 08:43:01 | <mhausenblas> | ... and we are back to reading slides :) |
| 09:03:53 | <mhausenblas> | now we talk! |
| 09:03:58 | <mhausenblas> | TimBL's speak |
| 09:04:28 | <mhausenblas> | reflections at 20y on the state of the WWW |
| 09:04:48 | <mhausenblas> | he focuses on Web Applications and Open Social Networks |
| 09:05:41 | <mhausenblas> | and of course: ..... Open Linked Data! :) |
| 09:08:09 | <mhausenblas> | we learn that Web year to normal year ratio is 2.6 (by TimBL original definition) |
| 09:08:18 | <mhausenblas> | now going to 1:1? |
| 09:09:40 | <mhausenblas> | ouch ... battery going down .. cya later |
| 09:10:47 | <dajobe> | phising sites |
| 09:10:57 | <dajobe> | see twitter search for #www2009 for lots more |
| 09:11:22 | <dajobe> | look out for things that change slowly that head to a tipping point |
| 09:11:30 | <dajobe> | some things are the same... |
| 09:11:35 | <dajobe> | een though ther eis a lto of fancy stuff on the web |
| 09:11:43 | <dajobe> | there is alot of importnat static stuff |
| 09:11:48 | <dajobe> | the record, the sscientific record |
| 09:11:51 | <dajobe> | the human record |
| 09:11:54 | <dajobe> | is being archived |
| 09:12:07 | <dajobe> | e.g. the whitehouse changes and immediately all the web pages change |
| 09:12:13 | <dajobe> | is somebody looking after them? i hope so |
| 09:12:28 | <dajobe> | Need the web to be a more collaborative |
| 09:12:30 | <dajobe> | Twitter! |
| 09:12:34 | <dajobe> | need more intuituive ways |
| 09:12:45 | <dajobe> | Same tension for parts to be come non-standard |
| 09:12:49 | <dajobe> | become |
| 09:12:51 | <dajobe> | compete |
| 09:13:00 | <dajobe> | have to keep one web - use standards |
| 09:13:10 | <dajobe> | #1. Web Applications |
| 09:13:33 | <dajobe> | when we go to some pages now, we're really running a program in a web page |
| 09:13:37 | <dajobe> | a new computing environment |
| 09:13:48 | <dajobe> | the devel of this environment is struggling with dealing with trust |
| 09:14:04 | <dajobe> | pulling data into a mashup to produce some result |
| 09:14:11 | <dajobe> | using lots of different bits of program |
| 09:14:22 | <dajobe> | how do you trust that code to read my private data? |
| 09:14:26 | <dajobe> | (Javascript code) |
| 09:14:41 | <dajobe> | need more research in capability-based systems like Cja |
| 09:14:44 | <dajobe> | Caja |
| 09:14:51 | <dajobe> | Need decentralized modular installation |
| 09:14:58 | <dajobe> | "Webized debian?" says the slide |
| 09:15:08 | <dajobe> | apt-get install |
| 09:15:54 | <dajobe> | Privacy - huge amount of discussion |
| 09:16:23 | <dajobe> | how to manage geo location on behalf of the user |
| 09:16:27 | <dajobe> | just some info |
| 09:16:41 | <dajobe> | machines will know so much about people |
| 09:16:49 | <dajobe> | it's just the start of a project to deal with this |
| 09:16:55 | <dajobe> | --- Modularity In General |
| 09:17:09 | <dajobe> | simplicity |
| 09:17:16 | <dajobe> | extensibility points to replace parts |
| 09:17:25 | <dajobe> | bolting on parts that haven't been invented yet |
| 09:17:47 | <dajobe> | rather, designing parts for a system that hasn't been invented |
| 09:18:16 | <dajobe> | html must still be modular |
| 09:18:21 | <dajobe> | and connect to the next big thing |
| 09:18:24 | <dajobe> | SVG |
| 09:18:41 | <dajobe> | IE really should impl SVG |
| 09:19:19 | <dajobe> | this is slide 7 of 19, he's not going to finish by 11:30am |
| 09:19:46 | <dajobe> | extensibility by java implementation |
| 09:19:58 | <dajobe> | migrate from in page, installed, pre/compiled |
| 09:20:06 | <dajobe> | this doesn't work for everything of course |
| 09:20:31 | <dajobe> | #2 Social Networking |
| 09:20:48 | <dajobe> | state of them now is walled gardens all over again |
| 09:21:05 | <dajobe> | then: AOL, Prodigy now: Facebook, ... |
| 09:21:27 | <dajobe> | a walled garden is tempting... can take money |
| 09:21:39 | <dajobe> | the first time we had phones that said they had web browsers |
| 09:21:54 | <dajobe> | you could only access web sites where the owner had an agreement/paid the phone co |
| 09:22:03 | <dajobe> | only took off when they were truly open |
| 09:23:39 | <dajobe> | walled garden picture |
| 09:23:53 | <dajobe> | and diagram of walled gardens of twitter / identi.ca and tweet.ie |
| 09:24:53 | <dajobe> | just as we can email anyone, this stuff needs to be opened up |
| 09:25:06 | <dajobe> | the bus above the social networks is rdf + owl _ HTTP _ SPARQL |
| 09:25:12 | <dajobe> | and above that an ajax 3.0 app |
| 09:25:35 | <dajobe> | arguing for Open Social Networking |
| 09:25:48 | <dajobe> | "using flash won't help" |
| 09:26:08 | <dajobe> | --- Identity - Personas |
| 09:26:37 | <dajobe> | I can give you an HTTP URI for me |
| 09:26:46 | <dajobe> | don't need to see "I am X on twitter, I am Y on facebook" |
| 09:26:50 | <dajobe> | that's so pre-web |
| 09:26:55 | <dajobe> | openID qutie deployed |
| 09:27:00 | <dajobe> | foaf+ssl has asdvantages |
| 09:27:03 | <dajobe> | maybe needs a new name! |
| 09:27:15 | <dajobe> | simpler, working towards a secure ID |
| 09:27:29 | <dajobe> | so you can be sure I am the person auth |
| 09:27:41 | <dajobe> | like openID but doesn't require such a complex system with PIPs |
| 09:28:30 | <dajobe> | computers can figure out identities of anonymous people |
| 09:28:35 | <dajobe> | pseudonyms not so real |
| 09:28:52 | <dajobe> | [and if computers can, so can the law/police/govt. !] |
| 09:28:59 | <dajobe> | #3 Linked Open Data Movement |
| 09:29:23 | <dajobe> | the first time I showed this pic, the bubbles were big enough you could read the labels |
| 09:30:38 | <dajobe> | wikipedia and links |
| 09:30:40 | <dajobe> | checking |
| 09:30:44 | <mhausenblas> | now TimBL is speaking about LOD cloud |
| 09:30:54 | <dajobe> | mhausenblas: read the logs |
| 09:31:06 | <dajobe> | Linked Data everywhere... |
| 09:31:52 | <mhausenblas> | ACTION is sorry - just came up online again, didn't check first that you are scribing. thanks! |
| 09:31:56 | <melvster_> | to follow on twitter: http://search.twitter.com/search?q=%23www2009 |
| 09:32:02 | <dajobe> | science data |
| 09:32:13 | <dajobe> | sitting on disks, not available by other scientists |
| 09:32:18 | <dajobe> | so linked open data science is very imp. |
| 09:32:55 | <dajobe> | social networks, community data - open street map |
| 09:33:14 | <dajobe> | linkedgeodata.org |
| 09:33:24 | <dajobe> | --- Linked Data Challenges |
| 09:33:41 | <dajobe> | still need a really easy program for somebody with a legacy relational DB |
| 09:34:20 | <dajobe> | something conversational to get out the hiddent db table/columns semantics |
| 09:34:24 | <dajobe> | get the data out |
| 09:34:26 | <mhausenblas> | yes, I agree very much reRDB2RDF - hope we will be able to deliver the base for this in the upcoming W3C Working GRoup |
| 09:34:42 | <melvster_> | i wonder if the phpmyadmin interface could export to N3 it already does a variety of other formats |
| 09:34:53 | <mhausenblas> | nice idea melvster |
| 09:34:55 | <dajobe> | when there are very large datasets... federated or delegated query needed |
| 09:35:08 | <dajobe> | co-reference - which are the same people? |
| 09:35:39 | <dajobe> | --- Social concerns |
| 09:36:11 | <dajobe> | we have some controls preventing access except for friends |
| 09:36:22 | <dajobe> | but you sometimes want access in different roles |
| 09:36:29 | <dajobe> | friend, employer, polices... |
| 09:37:05 | <dajobe> | [at this rate it's a race for tim to finish, run out of time, or me to run out of power] |
| 09:37:49 | <dajobe> | socially aware web |
| 09:37:53 | <mhausenblas> | ACTION ;) |
| 09:37:57 | <dajobe> | fed into access control |
| 09:38:03 | <dajobe> | --- Web I would like |
| 09:38:07 | <dajobe> | clean |
| 09:38:11 | <dajobe> | not grow in complexity |
| 09:38:17 | <dajobe> | like it to grow in cleanliness |
| 09:38:22 | <dajobe> | bye bye rdf reification!! |
| 09:38:34 | <dajobe> | move from legacy data |
| 09:38:42 | <dajobe> | to make future simpler data that is easier to parse |
| 09:38:49 | <dajobe> | we are making tomorrow's legacy data |
| 09:39:28 | <dajobe> | want to ask a questuon and for somethign to go ff to the data sources, delegate it and return the answer |
| 09:40:03 | <dajobe> | want data integrated to be well integrated |
| 09:40:07 | <dajobe> | maybe a new programming language |
| 09:40:15 | <dajobe> | so it is very easy to operate over hte web of linked ata |
| 09:40:42 | <dajobe> | and when that happens, want a really powerful, extenible security model for web apps |
| 09:41:39 | <dajobe> | capability-based systems |
| 09:41:44 | <dajobe> | would like more research in that area |
| 09:41:48 | <dajobe> | --- Our ROle |
| 09:41:55 | <dajobe> | Build a platform for others to follow |
| 09:42:06 | <dajobe> | do as Vint and others have done |
| 09:42:15 | <dajobe> | design to be useful general facility |
| 09:42:20 | <dajobe> | smooth, solid platform for building |
| 09:42:28 | <dajobe> | so people all over the web can build |
| 09:42:42 | <dajobe> | things we cannot necessarily imagine |
| 09:43:30 | <dajobe> | out of power... |
| 09:44:15 | <mhausenblas> | final words of TimBL: do your bit and everyone else does as well |
| 09:44:18 | <mhausenblas> | coffee!!! |
| 09:50:15 | <libby> | do your bit and do everyone else's as well? ;-) |
| 09:50:40 | <bblfish> | I just saw that timbl mentioned foaf+ssl? |
| 09:51:11 | <libby> | I guess they re all off to get caffinated |
| 09:52:51 | <mischat_> | hehe libby |
| 09:55:24 | <melvster_> | bblfish: yes, was some mention on twitter too http://search.twitter.com/search?q=%23www2009 |
| 09:56:25 | <bblfish> | yes, nice. |
| 09:56:31 | <bblfish> | are the slides up somwhere? |
| 10:10:43 | <mischat_> | does any want to go to the open hack day 2009 in london, i have a place but I can't make it, have a ball to go to instead, any takers? if not i will email and ask them to give it to someone random ... |
| 10:15:50 | <melvster_> | mhausenblas: it seems possible to write exporter plugins for phpmyadmin: http://phpmyadmin.svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc/phpmyadmin/trunk/phpMyAdmin/libraries/export/ |
| 10:16:50 | <CaptSolo> | hey mischat_ :) |
| 10:17:03 | <melvster_> | i would say this is the most used RDBMS tool on the web, export to RDF/XML or N3 may be able to be based on the existing xml.php file perhaps combined with triplify |
| 10:17:29 | <mischat_> | hey CaptSolo ... if it is regarding open hack day, i just pressed the "send" button on my mail client |
| 10:18:03 | <CaptSolo> | mischat_: it is but not re. tickets to it. |
| 10:18:12 | <mischat_> | fine :) |
| 10:18:19 | <mischat_> | go on |
| 10:18:26 | <CaptSolo> | just that you are going (or planned to) to all the cool events :) |
| 10:18:51 | <CaptSolo> | ACTION will be at hackday |
| 10:19:02 | <CaptSolo> | anyone else here? |
| 10:19:41 | <mischat_> | eh, i have recently moved to london, and am up for meeting people, and am no longer at a uni which was willing to send to conferences ;) I think some of the beeb folks are going to the event |
| 10:19:49 | <mischat_> | s/beeb/bbc/ |
| 10:20:26 | <danbri_> | i have a ticket too, not 100% sure if can make it either |
| 10:20:57 | <CaptSolo> | home to see some of you there |
| 10:21:05 | <CaptSolo> | s/home/hope/ |
| 10:21:39 | <CaptSolo> | danbri_: hey, you've got to keep traditions live :D |
| 10:21:54 | <CaptSolo> | "semweb gang at hackday" |
| 10:38:15 | <dajobe> | http://www.w3.org/2009/Talks/0422-www2009-tbl/ |
| 10:38:25 | <dajobe> | F:|Tim B-L www2009 keynote slides - web at 20 |
| 10:38:36 | <dajobe> | F:W3C ACL protected right now - some w3c staff can fix? |
| 10:38:48 | <mischat_> | password protected |
| 10:38:52 | <mischat_> | its password protected |
| 10:39:08 | <dajobe> | that's what I said |
| 10:39:45 | <mischat_> | my w3c login doesnt work either :( |
| 10:39:50 | <mischat_> | ah well ... |
| 10:41:24 | <EtnaRosso> | I'm looking for a tool to convert events (specified using Events Ontology) in iCal |
| 10:56:46 | <Anchakor> | "bye bye rdf reification!!"? I think reification is necessary in some cases... or dump make rdf use quads... :) |
| 10:56:57 | <Anchakor> | s/dump// |
| 10:58:54 | <shellac> | what do you need rdf reification for? and why would quads help? |
| 10:59:28 | <Anchakor> | when you want to express somthing about a triple |
| 10:59:42 | <shellac> | example? |
| 10:59:57 | <shellac> | I really mean: use case |
| 11:00:24 | <Anchakor> | same as named graphs |
| 11:01:04 | <shellac> | well we have named graphs for that, so you don't need reification or quads |
| 11:02:00 | <Anchakor> | yes, but in some cases I think reification is already used and rdf/xml support is really bad AFAIK |
| 11:02:02 | <shellac> | most of the use cases I come across can be covered by named graphs or (non-rdf) reification |
| 11:03:26 | <shellac> | yeah, we've never written this down. WAI, for example, were surprised that their use of rdf rei was questioned. It's in the specs, after all |
| 11:03:44 | <shellac> | ACTION will do this holy task at one point |
| 11:04:30 | <melvster_> | shellac: I've often wondered, what about graphs where you want to add a numerical weight to each edge? In mathematics this is called network theory (as opposed to graph theory) |
| 11:05:36 | <Anchakor> | s/support/support for named graphs/ |
| 11:08:09 | <Anchakor> | can rdf reification instance be converted into named graph? (looselessly) (reverse is surely possible) |
| 11:09:14 | <shellac> | if you adopt certain conventions, maybe, but the semantics for named graphs are much weaker |
| 11:10:18 | <Anchakor> | this should be researched... else you wont be able to say goodbye to rdf reification ever because of legacy data |
| 11:12:54 | <melvster_> | not exactly a use case, but here is an example of finding a shortest path in a graph by assigning weights to the edges: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dijkstra's_algorithm |
| 11:13:49 | <shellac> | Anchakor, the thing to do is probably to write down the alternatives and make it obvious |
| 11:14:12 | <shellac> | the reasons to avoid it are buried in W3C mail archives, for example |
| 11:15:11 | <dajobe> | it's my opinion that you shouldn't be organizing or annotating rdf at the triple level |
| 11:15:20 | <dajobe> | it should be triple-molecules or graphs |
| 11:15:21 | <shellac> | melvster_: things like qualifying distances, or degrees of beliefs are classic examples |
| 11:15:36 | <dajobe> | so that's named graphs with annotations to replace reification of a single tripel |
| 11:16:32 | <dajobe> | the 'legacy use' of reification was the only reason it wasn't killed in 2004 when rdf was revised. it was weak then, but we were cautious |
| 11:17:26 | <shellac> | dajobe: I concur, although that misses the other use cases which n-ary relations cover |
| 11:17:39 | <dajobe> | true |
| 11:17:53 | <dajobe> | maybe rdf should have had n-ary (& lists & ...) from the start |
| 11:18:08 | <dajobe> | but then it would be lisp or prolog |
| 11:18:45 | <EtnaRosso> | dajobe simpler is better |
| 11:19:11 | <melvster_> | seems that the techniques for describing subjects objects and verbs are almost infinitely deep, but adverbs are not so well covered, and perhaps require rephrasing the sentence? |
| 11:19:12 | <EtnaRosso> | binary relations are enough |
| 11:19:19 | <dajobe> | generally, but you need to have enough simplicity. sweet spots like JSON and imho Turtle |
| 11:20:02 | <EtnaRosso> | if you need to put an adverb, really you are telling something about an assertion |
| 11:20:13 | <EtnaRosso> | so you need a new individual to represent this assertion |
| 11:20:31 | <EtnaRosso> | (i.e. reification) |
| 11:20:35 | <dajobe> | melvster_: sometimes you just have >2 resources involved in a sentence, n-ary where n>2 and adding a blank node is all you can do, a little awkward |
| 11:20:36 | <Anchakor> | I agree |
| 11:20:46 | <Anchakor> | (with EtnaRosso) |
| 11:21:19 | <melvster_> | dajobe: that seems fine, i havent yet thought of a case where that's not enough |
| 11:21:30 | <EtnaRosso> | thank you Anchakor |
| 11:22:43 | <melvster_> | for example the trust vocab has a <TrustStatement> with two parties and at trust level |
| 11:23:04 | <EtnaRosso> | trust vocab? |
| 11:23:51 | <melvster_> | see: http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/Europe/reports/trust/11.2/d11.2_trust_vocabularies.html#2 |
| 11:23:51 | <EtnaRosso> | go to lunch |
| 11:24:09 | <EtnaRosso> | melvster_, see trust ontology by Golbeck |
| 11:24:17 | <EtnaRosso> | i don't like it too much |
| 11:25:06 | <EtnaRosso> | or the mine |
| 11:25:11 | <EtnaRosso> | i don't like it too much |
| 11:26:31 | <melvster_> | EtnaRosso: nice, looks similar |
| 11:27:27 | <melvster_> | but uses hasMainProperties and hasAuxiliaryProperties as a wrapper for for key value pairs |
| 11:48:43 | <tobyink> | melvster_: I have a foaf.me-related proposition for you. |
| 11:49:25 | <melvster_> | tobyink: im all ears :) |
| 11:50:52 | <tobyink> | Basically, I want you to have a script (probably needs an Apache rewrite too) so that for any URI of the form <http://mbox.foaf.me/bf903ff8b42453a0bae78b87b4e939cace7f4b8e> an RDF document is returned with the following triples: |
| 11:52:02 | <tobyink> | <http://mbox.foaf.me/bf903ff8b42453a0bae78b87b4e939cace7f4b8e> foaf:primaryTopic <#me> . <#me> a foaf:Agent ; foaf:mbox_sha1sum "bf903ff8b42453a0bae78b87b4e939cace7f4b8e" . |
| 11:52:24 | <melvster_> | sure i can do that |
| 11:53:00 | <ldodds> | cool, another infinite uri space |
| 11:53:06 | <tobyink> | Later on we can add some extra coolness allowing people to add more information (e.g. foaf:name, foaf:homepage, owl:sameAs, etc) which can be authenticated via e-mail confirmation. |
| 11:53:31 | <melvster_> | well I already have sparul set up |
| 11:53:43 | <melvster_> | so you can add triples with tabulator |
| 11:54:30 | <tobyink> | ldodds: the set of all valid sha1sums is not infinite. It's just very big. |
| 11:54:45 | <melvster_> | so you can already do something like: http://foaf.me/mbox/test |
| 11:54:51 | <melvster_> | that autocreates an account |
| 11:54:58 | <ldodds> | tobyink: you know what I mean :) |
| 11:55:51 | <melvster_> | e.g. http://foaf.me/mbox/bf903ff8b42453a0bae78b87b4e939cace7f4b8e |
| 11:56:48 | <tobyink> | melvster_: yes, that's close already. |
| 11:57:16 | <melvster_> | that was autocreated just by hitting the URI |
| 11:57:16 | <tobyink> | Changes in logic needed would be to remove the default firstName, givenName. |
| 11:58:30 | <tobyink> | And to put in place a rule that says when the URI matches "mbox/foo" to not set a foaf:nick, but instead set a foaf:mbox_sha1sum (and strip the leading "mbox/" from that). |
| 11:59:18 | <tobyink> | Bonus points for checking that the sha1sum is exactly 40 hexadecimal digits. |
| 12:08:46 | <melvster_> | tobyink: http://foaf.me/mbox/newmbox |
| 12:10:20 | <tobyink> | yay! |
| 12:12:35 | <melvster_> | you should also be able to insert new stuff with tabulator |
| 12:13:02 | <melvster_> | click on the + icon, or change things with Enter |
| 12:13:34 | <melvster_> | i can change the controller to check that you're foaf+ssl authenticated too |
| 12:13:42 | <melvster_> | but it's a liberal policy for now |
| 12:16:15 | <melvster_> | ldodds: re infinite URI space a friend of mine started http://reverse.me.uk/ to see how deep google would reverse spider md5, they went quite far in, it's limited i guess by query string length, but is still a pretty big number |
| 12:17:16 | <tobyink> | http://buzzword.org.uk/2009/webid-finder/WebIDFinder/form.php |
| 12:17:30 | <tobyink> | G:|WebID Finder (pretty form) |
| 12:18:07 | <melvster_> | tobyink: very cool! |
| 12:19:21 | <tobyink> | The idea is to make this part of libre.fm's profile editing interface, allowing a person to find an existing WebID. (By default libre.fm gives everyone a WebID of "http://alpha.libre.fm/user/USERNAME#me".) |
| 12:19:46 | <tobyink> | That way, libre.fm can avoid minting a new WebID for people - it can simply use their old one. |
| 12:20:06 | <melvster_> | very nice |
| 12:20:11 | <melvster_> | so you can tie a webid to an account? |
| 12:21:25 | <melvster_> | we're starting to get quite federated! :) |
| 12:21:32 | <MacTed> | G: <tobyink> The idea is to make this part of libre.fm's profile editing interface, allowing a person to find an existing WebID. (By default libre.fm gives everyone a WebID of "http://alpha.libre.fm/user/USERNAME#me".) |
| 12:21:37 | <tobyink> | Yes - see http://alpha.libre.fm/user/tobyink - the RDFa includes about="http://tobyinkster.co.uk/#i" |
| 12:21:48 | <MacTed> | G: <tobyink> That way, libre.fm can avoid minting a new WebID for people - it can simply use their old one. |
| 12:21:50 | <MacTed> | :-) |
| 12:22:55 | <melvster_> | awesome |
| 12:24:17 | <tobyink> | G: actively seeking suggestions about what other sites provide nice webids. (right now, just My Opera and Identica/Laconica are handled) |
| 12:24:40 | <melvster_> | friendfeed? |
| 12:25:12 | <melvster_> | e.g. http://friendfeed.com/johnrod/subscriptions?output=foaf |
| 12:26:23 | <tobyink> | G: [http://goddamn.co.uk/viewvc/misc/WebIDFinder/|source code] |
| 12:27:23 | <tobyink> | Problem with friendfeed is that the foaf:Person is a bnode. |
| 12:27:41 | <melvster_> | ah yes |
| 12:28:03 | <tobyink> | Ditto livejournal. |
| 12:28:15 | <melvster_> | hi5 would be the biggest: http://api.hi5.com/rest/profile/foaf/39290024 |
| 12:29:24 | <tobyink> | hi5 - also bnode. (rdf:nodeID is not the same as rdf:ID) |
| 12:30:28 | <shellac> | that feels like a typo in hi5 |
| 12:30:55 | <shellac> | why would you bother giving a bNode id there, especially one called 'me' |
| 12:34:08 | <tobyink> | Any FOAF sites that link to the FOAF using rel="meta" will work using the "Your Website" option anyway. The special support for identi.ca/laconi.ca/My Opera just skips a few HTTP requests because they have predictable URIs, thus speeding things up a bit. |
| 12:34:26 | <oshani> | If you at WWW2009, and interested in Linked Data, there's a BOF happening right now at L1 |
| 12:34:29 | <tobyink> | e.g. http://danbri.org/ works. |
| 12:36:15 | <melvster_> | tobyink: really good, it's such an important tool, because it translates something a normal user can understand ( homepage / account / email ) into something useful with linked metadata |
| 12:39:33 | <libby> | ACTION waves at metade |
| 12:41:13 | <mhausenblas> | BOF meeting at WWW09, now in room L1 Paris |
| 12:41:34 | <mhausenblas> | Topic: A research agenda for linked data |
| 12:44:50 | <oshani> | mhausenblas, can u paste the URI in here pls? |
| 12:44:56 | <yvesr> | mhausenblas: can you scribe what's going on in the BOF? |
| 12:46:49 | <scor> | ACTION waves at oshani and mhausenblas |
| 12:46:53 | <mhausenblas> | http://esw.w3.org/topic/SweoIG/TaskForces/CommunityProjects/LinkingOpenData/MadridBOF |
| 12:47:04 | <mhausenblas> | ACTION waves back |
| 12:53:45 | <kidehen> | tobyink: have you considered using: http://lod.openlinksw.com (which has REST API for what you see on front page) or http://lod.openlinksw.com/sparql to driver your WebID locator/finder? |
| 12:53:46 | <phenny> | kidehen: 02 Apr 17:16Z <mhausenblas> tell kidehen see http://chatlogs.planetrdf.com/swig/2009-04-02.html#T17-09-11 - ETA? |
| 12:53:47 | <phenny> | kidehen: 06 Apr 23:32Z <CaptSolo> tell kidehen an interesting thought re. Actions. could you write more about it to the SIOC list? |
| 12:56:09 | <kidehen> | phenny, tell tobyink: have you considered using: http://lod.openlinksw.com (which has REST API for what you see on front page) or http://lod.openlinksw.com/sparql to driver your WebID locator/finder? |
| 12:56:10 | <phenny> | kidehen: I'll pass that on when tobyink is around. |
| 12:56:31 | <tobyink> | i'll take a look |
| 12:56:31 | <phenny> | tobyink: 12:56Z <kidehen> tell tobyink have you considered using: http://lod.openlinksw.com (which has REST API for what you see on front page) or http://lod.openlinksw.com/sparql to driver your WebID locator/finder? |
| 13:30:38 | <juansequeda> | Hi everybody. We are at WWW and just organized a BOF: Research Agenda for Linked Data |
| 13:30:47 | <juansequeda> | We will update the wiki http://esw.w3.org/topic/SweoIG/TaskForces/CommunityProjects/LinkingOpenData/MadridBOF |
| 13:30:53 | <juansequeda> | but if you have any ideas, please contribute |
| 13:33:16 | <yvesr> | juansequeda: just thinking, but integrating linked data in desktop apps (e.g. music player, web browser, calendar, etc.) would be great. |
| 13:40:14 | <Wikier> | juansequeda: we'll read the minutes on the wiki, thx |
| 13:42:55 | <Shepard> | http://www.infoq.com/presentations/mnot-http-status-1108 |
| 13:43:00 | <Shepard> | I:|HTTP Status Report |
| 13:43:22 | <Shepard> | I:mnot talk on HTTP history, HTTPbis work, state of implementations, future of HTTP |
| 14:03:27 | <tobyink> | kidehen: http://esw.pastebin.com/mb15ebd3 seems to work nicely at http://lod.openlinksw.com/sparql |
| 14:06:49 | <mhausenblas> | BOF RALD |
| 14:07:10 | <mhausenblas> | we have split into two groups |
| 14:07:13 | <mhausenblas> | http://esw.w3.org/topic/SweoIG/TaskForces/CommunityProjects/LinkingOpenData/MadridBOF/TOP10 |
| 14:07:29 | <mhausenblas> | J:| TOP 10 list of linked data research issues |
| 14:07:37 | <mhausenblas> | http://esw.w3.org/topic/SweoIG/TaskForces/CommunityProjects/LinkingOpenData/MadridBOF/Communities |
| 14:08:01 | <mhausenblas> | K:| Community liaisons for linked data |
| 14:10:58 | <tobyink> | What is "BOF"? |
| 14:24:05 | <Anchakor> | juansequeda: you should put on the wiki also what "BOF" is... ;) |
| 14:28:25 | <mhausenblas> | BOF ... bird of feather |
| 14:29:30 | <mhausenblas> | http://www.webshine.org/2009bof.html |
| 14:29:53 | <mhausenblas> | L:| BOF Track |
| 14:29:53 | <mhausenblas> | 18th International World Wide Web Conference, |
| 14:30:05 | <mhausenblas> | L:| BOF Track 18th International World Wide Web Conference, |
| 14:32:20 | <mischat_> | tobyink: yeah i have emailed hi5 about the bnode |
| 14:37:40 | <BenO> | RDFa q: how should i escape quote characters in literals ? e.g. |
| 14:37:57 | <BenO> | <span property="dc:description" content="This file [..] he "tick" data, [..]ed."></span> <-- is unescaped and therefore broken |
| 14:39:56 | <Pipian> | BenO: Should be the standard " entity, although I could be wrong. |
| 14:39:59 | <PovAddict> | BenO: that's a general SGML/XML question :) |
| 14:40:01 | <PovAddict> | " |
| 14:41:32 | <BenO> | Pipian, PovAddict, Just checking :) now to fix the rdfa serialiser! |
| 14:41:54 | <PovAddict> | you have to quote & and < and > too |
| 14:42:19 | <PovAddict> | (as & < and > respectively) |
| 14:42:46 | <BenO> | PovAddict, sure, its just that the rdfa serialiser Im using isnt doing that atm |
| 14:42:52 | <mattl> | w/in 14 |
| 14:42:54 | <mattl> | erk |
| 14:49:48 | <cerealtom> | metade: ping |
| 14:50:35 | <metade> | cerealtom: hi |
| 14:50:43 | <tobyink> | Have added my auto-find-webid-thingy to libre.fm's test site: http://alpha.dev.libre.fm/edit_profile.php |
| 14:55:20 | <cerealtom> | metade: you still want me to setup the mailing list? |
| 14:55:59 | <kurtjx> | tobyink: cool just added my foaf to libre.fm |
| 14:56:41 | <mischat_> | mischat_: kurtjx thanks for e-meeting my friend :) |
| 14:56:44 | <metade> | yes please |
| 14:57:01 | <kurtjx> | mischat_: np :-) |
| 14:57:53 | <mattl> | tobyink: not sure about support for "my opera" ;) |
| 14:58:10 | <cerealtom> | ok metade, gimme two minutes |
| 14:58:28 | <tobyink> | kurtjx: if you click the "check" button near location, it should also find the geonames URI for your location and include that in your profile. |
| 14:58:46 | <tobyink> | mattl: I can comment that out if you like. |
| 14:59:34 | <mattl> | is geonames free? i am just concerned that we might be relying on nonfree stuff |
| 15:00:15 | <mischat_> | geonames can take a long time to respond too |
| 15:00:49 | <JRV> | "The GeoNames geographical database is available for download free of charge under a creative commons attribution license." (http://www.geonames.org/about.html) |
| 15:02:47 | <tobyink> | We don't actually include any geonames data (yet) - just store a link to a place on geonames.org against each profile. |
| 15:03:21 | <tobyink> | so licensing shouldn't be much of an issue yet. I was planning to retrieve long, lat and country from geonames int he future though. |
| 15:07:52 | <mattl> | tobyink: CC-BY is fine :) |
| 15:08:36 | <JRV> | :) |
| 15:08:36 | <PovAddict> | does CC-BY mean you can make derivatives and change license? |
| 15:08:48 | <tobyink> | mattl: I've also recently brought ARC2 into the svn respository. It's tri-licensed under W3C license, GPL2 and GPL3. That OK? |
| 15:09:03 | <PovAddict> | (no derivs has its own code, derivs-and-keep-license has its own code, so that's what's left) |
| 15:09:04 | <leobard> | in Turtle/N3, did we ever agree how to identify THIS document? I tried " : a foaf:Document." but that doesn't parse in CWM. any idea? |
| 15:09:28 | <metade_> | cerealtom: rdf-hackers-london ? |
| 15:09:33 | <mattl> | tobyink: yeah, that's fine. |
| 15:09:34 | <leobard> | ACTION says hi, btw. |
| 15:09:48 | <mischat_> | melvster_: oooo |
| 15:09:57 | <mattl> | PovAddict: yes it does. |
| 15:10:16 | <mischat_> | <> : foafDocument . |
| 15:10:22 | <tobyink> | leobard: <> a foaf:Document should work . |
| 15:10:25 | <mischat_> | <> a foaf:Document |
| 15:10:27 | <mischat_> | :) |
| 15:10:40 | <leobard> | ACTION testing... |
| 15:10:45 | <cerealtom> | metade_: or london-rdf-hackers? (more aligned with london-pm, as a related/comparable community?) |
| 15:10:59 | <cerealtom> | metade_: sorry for slowness, got distracted by giovanni :) |
| 15:11:01 | <mischat_> | yay to london-rdf-hackers |
| 15:11:06 | <metade_> | that's fine :) |
| 15:11:18 | <cerealtom> | ok, on its way |
| 15:11:24 | <metade_> | great! |
| 15:11:41 | <cerealtom> | metade_, mischat_, who dya want as list owners? which mailboxes? |
| 15:11:49 | <cerealtom> | you can be cryptic is desired |
| 15:11:53 | <swh> | +1 to london-rdf-hackers |
| 15:11:54 | <cerealtom> | s/is/if |
| 15:12:11 | <mischat_> | am happy to do it |
| 15:12:16 | <mischat_> | garlik email address |
| 15:12:55 | <cerealtom> | ok mischat_; can add more afterwards |
| 15:13:02 | <leobard> | tobyink, mischat_: thx, that does something but not exactly what I thought... and its undocumented... I will try what Jena does with it.... |
| 15:16:24 | <cerealtom> | ACTION drums fingers on the table, waiting for web interface to return after creation of list for metade_ and mischat_ |
| 15:17:05 | <mischat_> | nice one tom |
| 15:17:06 | <tobyink> | leobard: Anything in angle brackets is a URI; relative URIs are allowed; the empty string is a relative URI referring to the current document URI (or rather to the current base URI, which defaults to the current document URI). |
| 15:17:49 | <tobyink> | mischat_ , cerealtom : may I join london-rdf-hackers even if I don't strictly live in London? |
| 15:18:45 | <mischat_> | of course :) |
| 15:19:07 | <mischat_> | cerealtom: i just got an email from DH |
| 15:23:51 | <leobard> | @tobyink, @dajobe, @timbl: could you someone add this to the N3/Turtle documents? it was not crystal clear to me that <> could be used to identify the "current document" to say "<> a foaf:Document". |
| 15:24:11 | <cerealtom> | mischat_: great :) |
| 15:24:24 | <leobard> | ACTION hopes that this would help... |
| 15:24:46 | <kasei> | heya ceraltom |
| 15:24:56 | <cerealtom> | mischat_: did it include the password? |
| 15:25:37 | <mischat_> | yeah it did |
| 15:25:47 | <mischat_> | shall i paste it in there ... hehe |
| 15:25:51 | <mischat_> | s/there/here/ |
| 15:26:01 | <cerealtom> | kasei: hey :) good to "see" you |
| 15:26:07 | <mattl> | mischat_: we'll also need your PIN, your bank details and your mother's maiden name ;) |
| 15:26:23 | <cerealtom> | mischat_: ok, cool, so you can add other list admins, inc metade_? |
| 15:26:27 | <kasei> | how'd vocamp go? (last week of the term here, so haven't been keeping up with posts) |
| 15:26:29 | <mischat_> | leobard: you can also do <#me> a foaf:Person . which is nice short hand |
| 15:26:32 | <cerealtom> | via the mailman interface mischat_ |
| 15:26:42 | <mischat_> | via I can do that |
| 15:26:54 | <mischat_> | s/via/yeah/ |
| 15:27:13 | <mischat_> | metade_: which email address should I use ? |
| 15:27:36 | <cerealtom> | kasei: vocamp ibiza was good, thanks. i had connectivity issues, so not much in the way of blog posts or tweets, but was a good couple of days |
| 15:27:38 | <metade_> | my gmail please |
| 15:27:45 | <cerealtom> | kasei: just been talking to jim about vocamps |
| 15:28:15 | <cerealtom> | kasei: didnt manage to convince him of VoCampTroy2009, yet, but i'll keep working on him |
| 15:28:17 | <kasei> | ah, nice (too bad about connectivity issues.. you'd think we could sort that sort of thing out at this point, but... :) |
| 15:28:21 | <cerealtom> | ;) |
| 15:28:35 | <mischat_> | cerealtom: vocamp bristol ? |
| 15:28:36 | <kasei> | haha. convincing anyone to do things in troy is a challenge. |
| 15:28:57 | <cerealtom> | mischat_: cool, so will leave you to get metade_, swh and others setup and just shout if you need anything from me |
| 15:29:14 | <cerealtom> | haha kasei, what, other than drinking and fighting? ;) |
| 15:29:29 | <mischat_> | yeah good stuff, will do the adding now, will show if i need anything |
| 15:29:39 | <kasei> | something like that |
| 15:29:51 | <cerealtom> | mischat_: yep, VoCampBristol2009 is coming, looking like mid-Sept. shellac is coordinating stuff re rooms |
| 15:30:08 | <mischat_> | excellent |
| 15:31:40 | <cerealtom> | kasei: will you make it to vocamp nyc |
| 15:31:57 | <mischat_> | metade_: i just made you admin too ... let me know if you dont receive an email from the maillist thing |
| 15:32:17 | <metade_> | mishcat_: thanks! |
| 15:32:17 | <ldodds> | cool re: VoCampBristol2009 |
| 15:32:28 | <mattl> | Mm, Bristol. |
| 15:32:33 | <kasei> | ceraltom: is there a firm date yet? |
| 15:32:45 | <kasei> | i'd certainly like to. |
| 15:32:46 | <mischat_> | good work on vocamp stuff cerealtom |
| 15:33:09 | <cerealtom> | thanks mischat_ :) |
| 15:35:22 | <PovAddict> | "Given that the local loops alone in the USA used 58 light-minutes of copper wire[...]" holy crap |
| 15:35:24 | <cerealtom> | kasei: yes, there is a date set for vocamp nyc, just one day i think |
| 15:35:53 | <cerealtom> | kasei: just trying to check on vocamp.org but connection at www2009 is bad |
| 15:36:13 | <kasei> | the page I found on vocamp.org says Date TBA... |
| 15:39:11 | <cerealtom> | kasei: hmmm |
| 15:40:11 | <cerealtom> | in case anyone missed it, there is a now a new list for london rdf hackers: http://lists.linkeddata.org/listinfo.cgi/london-rdf-hackers-linkeddata.org |
| 16:24:25 | <cerealtom> | kasei, you there still? July 18th looks like the day for VoCamp NYC, but asking Christine Connors to confirm on the wiki if that date is fixed |
| 17:18:05 | <melvster_> | bengee: nice post, im also looking at automation rich internet applications |
| 17:18:15 | <melvster_> | i finally found a todo list ontology: http://tr.im/todoont |
| 17:18:57 | <bengee> | thx :) rdf/ical has todos, too, IIRC |
| 17:19:11 | <melvster_> | oh great, will look there |
| 17:19:14 | <melvster_> | which OS do you use? |
| 17:19:22 | <bengee> | and danja has a project vocab |
| 17:19:43 | <bengee> | win and mac |
| 17:20:20 | <bengee> | aiming at in-browser apps, though |
| 17:20:30 | <melvster_> | same with me, but i develop more for win, ill shoot you some of my apps when they are ready, they will be desktop based with web interaction, foaf+ssl is the glue |
| 17:21:02 | <bengee> | interesting |
| 17:21:41 | <melvster_> | this is the kind of thing i build off: http://www.autohotkey.com/forum/topic38309.html |
| 17:23:12 | <melvster_> | ive been modifying this to allow it a keystroke based todo list that interacts with other resources, and also can be a heads up display, ill allow it to log in to other services as your web id |
| 17:23:25 | <bengee> | aha, hardcore keyboarder ;) |
| 17:23:40 | <melvster_> | sort of, i need a todo list to be fast |
| 17:23:45 | <melvster_> | otherwise i ignore it |
| 17:24:32 | <melvster_> | but you can build very rich desktop apps this way |
| 17:24:50 | <melvster_> | as it can interface with any other app,. desktop or web quite easily |
| 17:25:17 | <bengee> | I saw some pretty cool mozilla labs experiments that worked similarly |
| 17:25:19 | <melvster_> | and you're set up in only a few lines, which is better than the overhead of flex / silverlight / xul |
| 17:25:38 | <melvster_> | yes the mozilla stuff is awesome, firefox 3.6 will change the way we do things |
| 17:26:46 | <melvster_> | but once you have an identity decoupled from your application you can be much more flexible with how and what you build, in theory everything should work with everything else |
| 17:26:50 | <kasei> | dajobe, around? |
| 17:28:08 | <melvster_> | so basically an in browser app should be the same functionally as a desktop app |
| 17:30:21 | <melvster_> | and all of the different apps, whether they be browser or web, desktop should be able to interoperate, then you have a truly powerful federated platform |
| 17:31:08 | <melvster_> | much like UNIX IPC, but the (semantic) web is the operating system |
| 17:33:01 | <PovAddict> | the day our operating systems become fullscreen browsers I'll stop upgrading |
| 17:34:51 | <melvster_> | might take a while ... :) |
| 17:36:52 | <PovAddict> | but I'm only 18 so I'll probably be still alive by then |
| 17:36:53 | <drobilla> | rdfcat /proc/apps | sparqlgrep '?app a semnix:Browser' |
| 17:37:23 | <PovAddict> | after seeing Debian packaging format, I do agree that we need more RDF client-side :D |
| 17:41:37 | <melvster_> | ah that looks better: http://tr.im/icalont |
| 17:43:18 | <drobilla> | yes we do. rdf in plugins and packages and such works extremely well |
| 17:44:21 | <MacTed> | bengee - just saw your new blog post... have you looked at ODS? OpenLink Data Spaces satisfies virtually all your technical wishes, tho beauty is in the eye of the beholder (or the skinner -- UI improvements are always possible)... |
| 17:48:10 | <bengee> | heh, yep, different simplicity/beauty requirements here, I'm afraid (no offense ;) |
| 17:49:40 | <MacTed> | call it a stupid question ... why not work on (at least by feedback, if not by actual work) a better skin for the apps that already do (most) everything technical? |
| 17:50:28 | <MacTed> | I ask because, to put it bluntly, you've described ODS in a nutshell ... and effectively suggested it doesn't exist |
| 17:52:22 | <bengee> | I prefer to understand the code I'm building on. that seems to impossible with openlink stuff that is marketed as being able to do just everything someone can ever imagine |
| 17:52:34 | <bengee> | seems to *be* impossible |
| 17:52:58 | <MacTed> | hm. |
| 17:54:33 | <MacTed> | perhaps I'm a bit oversensitive, but "marketed as" has a whiff of "of course it can't *really*" to it ... while to me, it seems like the functionality really *is* there. |
| 17:55:05 | <MacTed> | (not for *everything* you can imagine ... but the feature set you outlined? yeah, it can do or does now...) |
| 17:55:17 | <bengee> | the messaging is just kinda offputting for developers like me who like to do *something* themselves. |
| 17:55:56 | <MacTed> | perhaps I misunderstood your post. |
| 17:56:01 | <MacTed> | you want to *create* this suite? |
| 17:56:06 | <MacTed> | or you want to *find* it? |
| 17:56:15 | <bengee> | the german term is "eierlegende wollmilchsau", which is sort of the opposite of "do one thing, and do it right" |
| 17:56:35 | <bengee> | I guess I'll create the apps, yep |
| 17:57:29 | <MacTed> | the whiff has become a stench... the opposite of "do one thing, and do it right" would seem to be "do everything, but none of it right" |
| 17:57:52 | <MacTed> | thanks for the "compliment" |
| 17:58:04 | <PovAddict> | <bengee> I prefer to understand the code I'm building on. |
| 17:58:07 | <PovAddict> | NIH syndrome |
| 17:58:20 | <bengee> | I'm sure ODS does "everything, and right", but I wouldn't know where to start to find it out |
| 17:59:21 | <MacTed> | a crazy suggestion -- by registering yourself at http://myopenlink.net/ ? |
| 17:59:30 | <bengee> | PovAddict, not really in that case. I've not seen a simple, usable RDF issue tracker or calendar yet |
| 18:00:17 | <MacTed> | ODS-Calendar can be used directly, or you can publish iCalendar to ODS-Briefcase. both deliver RDF of the events... |
| 18:00:45 | <PovAddict> | well, if you think you have to write an app from scratch, go ahead; as long as you use the existing formats :) |
| 18:01:05 | <MacTed> | the Virtuoso Sponger currently includes a Cartridge for Bugzilla; others won't be that hard to produce for other trackers |
| 18:01:10 | <bengee> | PovAddict, sure, that's the idea |
| 18:01:38 | <kidehen> | bengee: best I reply you via a blog post. If you don't know ODS well enough then don't speculate, really |
| 18:01:39 | <PovAddict> | for a moment I misunderstood you disagreed with an *ontology* and wanted to make your own; then I saw ODS was a service, not a format |
| 18:01:59 | <MacTed> | ACTION I will suggest a rewording of your blog post -- for I'm sure others will have the same interpretation I did -- "I want these apps, and they don't exist!" |
| 18:02:24 | <kidehen> | bengee: you put out a boiler list and ODS has handled a good chunk of that for eons |
| 18:03:12 | <kidehen> | MacTed: bengee is putting out a feeler, but irrespective, ODS handles what he wants to build, and in an open world, competition if very very good |
| 18:03:47 | <kidehen> | MacTed: better to have something that is like you when trying to describe yourself. Imagine trying to describe "Adam" |
| 18:03:59 | <kidehen> | MacTed: or "Eve" |
| 18:05:08 | <MacTed> | kidehen - agreed |
| 18:06:36 | <kidehen> | MacTed: there are 3 stages to all innovations: Crazy (everyone thinks you're crazy), Obvious (ah! so obvious, even co-opt it in many cases), and then Religion. This pattern has existed for ever, pre computer industry, and absolutely pre Web. |
| 18:07:29 | <kidehen> | MacTed: I do believe Alan Kay actually described this phenomena in one of his many presentations re. OOP and his misgivings about the OOP term as he saw C++ and MS-DOS etc.. |
| 18:08:31 | <kidehen> | MacTed: what's most important is that the cohesion of the Web (courtesy of Linked Data) confines stage 2 to: the Obvious stage, the co-opting doesn't work, especially when the Web becomes a full DBMS and supports Outer Joins |
| 18:09:34 | <kidehen> | MacTed: so I don't worry about how and when the Data Space epiphany, its going to happen, just as the Linked Data epiphany is now taking shape etc.. |
| 18:17:41 | <MacTed> | *nods* sure. I just got caught on the difference between "love to see" and "love to make". :-) |
| 18:19:35 | <PovAddict> | I'd love to see so many things |
| 18:20:42 | <bengee> | I get intermitting errors when I try to connect to myopenlink.net |
| 18:21:43 | <MacTed> | there seems to be something network-ish going on. lemme see what I can do. |
| 18:22:28 | <bengee> | no worries, had a quick test drive of the address book |
| 18:25:07 | <kidehen> | MacTed: simply demo site is http://demo.openlinksw.com/ods ; myopenlink.net is virual domain based and 8890 is sometimes more predictable for experimental initial / exploratory use. |
| 18:39:52 | <Anchakor> | melvster_: why care about platforms and not develop crossplatform desktop apps? |
| 18:42:50 | <PovAddict> | I'd rather use a Mac app made in Cocoa than one made in wxWidgets |
| 18:43:33 | <mattl> | PovAddict: can you tell the difference? |
| 18:44:31 | <PovAddict> | also, GTK on Windows feels quite ugly/alien |
| 18:44:59 | <mattl> | what about Qt? |
| 18:45:14 | <PovAddict> | I don't remember using Qt apps on Windows |
| 18:46:33 | <PovAddict> | even GTK on KDE is easily noticeable from the horrible file picker |
| 18:46:58 | <mattl> | GTK's my favourite. |
| 18:47:09 | <PovAddict> | if you're on GNOME :) |
| 18:47:46 | <PovAddict> | I have never *made* a GUI, mind you... |
| 18:48:01 | <PovAddict> | well, I once wrote a little game using Windows API from C :/ |
| 18:48:12 | <Anchakor> | I have no favourite but gtk dialogs and keyboard shortcuts are aweful, qt seems most ok now... I coded with wxwidgets in the past |
| 18:48:13 | <PovAddict> | *pain* |
| 18:48:40 | <mattl> | Anchakor: which keyboard shortcuts are dumb on GTK? |
| 18:49:26 | <Anchakor> | mattl: for example in save dialogs... |
| 18:50:09 | <Anchakor> | do you know vimperator? it is the heaven of usebility for people using mainly keyboard... people should learn from it... |
| 18:50:42 | <mattl> | i know of it, but it's vim, so I don't use it |
| 18:50:47 | <PovAddict> | vim <3 |
| 18:51:08 | <Anchakor> | mattl: it isn't vim... :) |
| 18:51:22 | <mattl> | Anchakor: it looks like vim, feels like vim and acts like vim. |
| 18:51:40 | <Anchakor> | PovAddict: gtk is beautiful compared to what windows apps look like in wine :) |
| 18:52:01 | <PovAddict> | Anchakor: well... yeah :) |
| 18:52:12 | <PovAddict> | I think mono winforms apps looked worse though |
| 18:52:19 | <Anchakor> | mattl: it looks like firefox, acts like firefox & vim + it has awesome feature called hints - press f and type... |
| 18:52:48 | <mattl> | Anchakor: yeah, i don't want anything that acts like vim ;) |
| 18:53:06 | <Anchakor> | mattl: you fundamentalist ;) |
| 18:53:15 | <PovAddict> | ACTION :wq's mattl |
| 18:53:28 | <mattl> | i'm putting the fun back into fundamentalism. |
| 18:53:43 | <mattl> | i've also been using emacs for a long time, and have no desire to move. |
| 18:53:50 | <PovAddict> | editing html with vim > Microsoft Word |
| 18:54:04 | <PovAddict> | or latex, but I have little experience with it |
| 18:55:01 | <Anchakor> | mattl: sure, but vimperator != vim and Im sure emacs people enjoy it to... (after all, browser is becoming an operating system as well... :)) |
| 18:55:32 | <mattl> | Anchakor: i really hope the browser never becomes an operating system :) |
| 18:56:01 | <Anchakor> | me too (maybe because I like vim and unix philosophy :)) |
| 18:57:17 | <PovAddict> | Anchakor: http://news.povray.org/49ef4c67%40news.povray.org |
| 18:57:30 | <PovAddict> | I got him a collection :D |
| 19:04:01 | <melvster_> | Anchakor: eventually it will be portable people are working on a mac and linux version, and wine works too, but the main reason I use the OS is because I built it for myself to use, and wanted it to be utlra fast |
| 19:06:19 | <Anchakor> | melvster_: well any why not use crossplatform libraries? I coded in wxwidgets and it worked without any change on windows when I tried... |
| 19:13:45 | <Anchakor> | MacTed: for some people (me included) it can be a turn off if the desired application depends on ton of other things, which I suspect might be the case of ODE... |
| 19:14:39 | <Anchakor> | MacTed: and definately some things people prefer to make, not just see... love for example :) |
| 19:24:07 | <kidehen> | Anchakor: we have a wonderful way of being perceived as the opposite of what we are :-( Our products support many protocols so as not to have N^2 component dependencies. That's the base architectural philosopy |
| 19:25:44 | <kidehen> | Anchakor: adhering to industry standards is supposed to be a wonderful thing, right? Compare Virtuoso, ODS, or ODE to your typical LAMP stack, no comparison re. dependencies. Even more, we are not Linux only, we run across all the major platforms (again base philosophy, hence our company name etc..). |
| 19:26:33 | <kidehen> | Anchakor: we write in 'C' not due to some form of masochism, just because it is still the language that runs on most operating systems. In many cases, we use Virtuoso as our sort of VM :-) |
| 19:27:56 | <MacTed> | Anchakor - as Kingsley says -- ODE (OpenLink Data Explorer) and ODS (OpenLink Data Spaces) depend on Virtuoso. which depends on, um, the OS. and the network. and not much more. |
| 19:29:25 | <MacTed> | the browser-hosted version of ODE doesn't even depend on Virtuoso. it does need an RDFizing proxy, and defaults to Virtuoso -- but any suitably standards-compliant target can be used. |
| 19:30:09 | <kidehen> | Anchakor: problem with many things today is that History is worth zilch. We remake history from today onwards, and then we loose all the lessons that history truly teaches. |
| 19:30:09 | <kidehen> | Anchakor s/loose/lose |
| 19:31:45 | <Anchakor> | kidehen: you are right, people judge by impressions, I guess my impression was formed by the all-in one webserver concept, and might be wrong |
| 19:32:08 | <kidehen> | Anchakor: don't conflate standards compliance with component hell, really. We are about sanitizing the mess we have today via the concept of a Universal Server Platform. A platform you simply switch on (LAN or Internet WAN). It deals with Data is very sophisticated ways, doesn't seek to recreate paper, and absolutely doesn't see the document as ground zero. Data Space is ground zero in our world view. |
| 19:33:48 | <PovAddict> | I just imagined a world where you could explain something in machine-readable format, and the computer could turn it into a document... in any natural language |
| 19:34:09 | <PovAddict> | I think it would work better than trying to auto-translate from a natural language to another |
| 19:34:10 | <kidehen> | Anchakor: I did a podcast with Jon Udell a few years ago, worth a listen, I explain our vision. See: http://www.openlinksw.com/blog/~kidehen/index.vspx?page=&id=965 |
| 19:34:23 | <PovAddict> | since the original would have no ambiguities |
| 19:34:52 | <bengee> | ACTION updates the blog post, starting to sound a little like an anti-rdf troll in the making ;) |
| 19:35:08 | <Anchakor> | I really like what openlink is doing and did try virtuoso and will use it in future on server witch just recently became available to me, but I understand some people don't have dedicated server, so they for example rely on having their apps run on common php+mysql webhosting |
| 19:35:24 | <Anchakor> | s/witch/which/ |
| 19:35:25 | <bengee> | hope I don't become the next crschmidt.. |
| 19:40:22 | <mattl> | bengee: what does that involve? |
| 19:40:38 | <bengee> | err, now this sounds like crschmidt is a troll, he clearly isn't. |
| 19:40:56 | <mattl> | heh. he's a nice guy. |
| 19:41:22 | <PovAddict> | ACTION has to go study boring stuff, will then come back here to explain a problem that RDF could solve |
| 19:41:42 | <bengee> | just a formerly active RDFer who discovered that he could be more productive without using RDF |
| 19:42:05 | <Anchakor> | ACTION does sturdy boring stuff in C all day |
| 19:42:27 | <Anchakor> | s/sturdy/study and code/ :) |
| 19:42:54 | <Anchakor> | (hopefully would be sturdy too :)) |
| 19:43:05 | <PovAddict> | mine's more boring than you |
| 19:43:27 | <PovAddict> | yours* |
| 19:43:59 | <Anchakor> | ok, I admit it probably is :) |
| 19:48:20 | <MacTed> | huh. spam snip? really? |
| 19:48:58 | <MacTed> | ACTION because I said that the features you explicitly highlighted -- SPARQL and RDF -- were delivered by Virtuoso? |
| 19:52:37 | <snail> | PovAddict: re your "just imagined a world where you could explain something in machine-readable format, and the computer could turn it into a document... in any natural language" comment, you've seen GRDDL, right? http://www.w3.org/TR/2007/REC-grddl-20070911/ |
| 19:55:31 | <PovAddict> | hmm |
| 19:55:45 | <kidehen> | Anchakor: you do know that Virtuoso and ODS exist in AMI form on EC2. Even more, AMIs exist for: DBpedia, MusicBrainz, NeuroCommons, Bio2RDF, and soon entire LOD-Cloud (so can instantiate your own: http://lod.openlinksw.com instance via an AMI) |
| 19:57:13 | <kidehen> | Anchakor: as with most things, the really hard issues have been addressed and are on display re. http://lod.oepnlinksw.com (scalable RDF management and faceted search + find, VoiD based stats, all the stuff that has challenged the RDF realm for a long time). |
| 19:57:13 | <Anchakor> | kidehen: AMI? |
| 19:57:30 | <kidehen> | Anchakor: Amazon EC2 AMI |
| 19:58:02 | <Anchakor> | aah |
| 19:58:05 | <kidehen> | Anchakor: links coming: http://virtuoso.openlinksw.com/wiki/main/Main/VirtInstallationEC2 |
| 19:59:30 | <kidehen> | Anchakor: AMIs are about "Data as a Service" (the new electricity), just put on your AMI, get loaded and functional data spaces, do your thing via whatever you offer the world via your Linked Data oriented app. or service. Again, solving real problems. |
| 20:00:10 | <kidehen> | Anchakor: We will even go retro by making USB keys available with the entire LOD-Cloud data on board :-) |
| 20:01:14 | <kidehen> | Anchakor: or you get a key for you desired bubble from the LOD-Cloud e.g. if you want DBpedia, then you can order an DBpedia key etc.. Load the data into Virtuoso or any other RDF store capable of handling the task. |
| 20:01:38 | <Anchakor> | kidehen: I see, that is one way to do that, perhaps too new for most people (and maybe expensive)... to something a bit different: how far is development on federated query across the whole web of data? |
| 20:06:02 | <kidehen> | Anchakor: SPARQL federation works starts after we are done with Virtuoso 6.0 initial release (this week or next) . Remember, we federated SQL in 1998 with location aware query optimization. We want to do the same for SPARQL. Discoverability of sparql endpoints is vital, ditto stats about the state of the data behind the endpoint. Anyway, it is coming, and it will be delivered in typical OpenLink fashion (i.e. leveraging years of experie |
| 20:06:35 | <kidehen> | Anchakor: but we want to close the lid on the Cluster Edition which is more or less now done. |
| 20:08:39 | <Anchakor> | kidehen: sure, I look forward to it... do you plan to provide some limited free service for it? |
| 20:09:47 | <kidehen> | Anchakor: yes, of course, we are all ears about risk free evaluation options. At very least there will be 15-30 day free evals, and AMI options re. EC2 |
| 20:10:10 | <melvster_> | what exactly is federated sparql? |
| 20:11:00 | <kidehen> | melvster_: automatically routing SPARQL out to another SPARQL endpoint based on analysis of a graph pattern that is scoped to one of more Named Graphs. |
| 20:11:12 | <LeeF> | Or not so automatically, for that matter. |
| 20:11:39 | <Anchakor> | melvster_: basically a sparql query spread across multiple endpoints |
| 20:11:39 | <LeeF> | Federated SPARQL is about delegating portions of a query to other query endpoints, and then combining the results to answer the original query |
| 20:11:39 | <melvster_> | to exactly one sparql endpoint, or is there scope for more than one? |
| 20:11:50 | <LeeF> | melvster_: more than one, in the usual scenarios |
| 20:11:50 | <kidehen> | LeeF: SPARQL endpoint discoverability is the key here, do we maintain a list or discover over DNS etc.. |
| 20:12:12 | <LeeF> | kidehen: Maybe *you* think it's key :-), but I don't think that's an absolute truth at all. |
| 20:12:31 | <melvster_> | that sounds pretty awesome |
| 20:12:41 | <kidehen> | LeeF: endpoint discoverability? of the use of DNS? |
| 20:13:32 | <kidehen> | LeeF: We need to find an endpoint and ideally be able to determine what it has, statistically. No stats, no smarts, basically. |
| 20:14:04 | <LeeF> | kidehen: I was just saying that automated federation is a great goal, but it's not the only useful use of federated query, so it's a bit misleading to define it as such |
| 20:14:31 | <LeeF> | kidehen: lots of people get a lot of benefit from explicitly directed federation (c.f. SERVICE in ARQ and (i understand) pragmas in virtuoso) |
| 20:14:55 | <kidehen> | LeeF: Yes, but we want to go beyond that, of course |
| 20:15:35 | <melvster_> | im not sure dns is the best option for discovery, as it has a setup overhead |
| 20:16:16 | <kidehen> | melvster_: DNS is an option, not panacea. |
| 20:16:18 | <PovAddict> | Link: header? |
| 20:16:58 | <kidehen> | melvster_: have you read: http://www.floop.org.uk/eagle/discovering-sparql ? |
| 20:17:42 | <kidehen> | melvster_: if you have an dns-sd, try: dns-sd -B _sparql._tcp floop.org.uk |
| 20:18:15 | <kidehen> | melvster_: or dns-sd -B _sparql._tcp openlinksw.com |
| 20:19:34 | <kidehen> | melvster_: these things take time to get going, but when we put heads together constructively, we can make the erstwhile challenging, possible :-) The building blocks are taking shape. |
| 20:20:12 | <kidehen> | melvster_: building a VoiD graph for the LOD cloud hosting instance of Virtuoso: http://lod.openlinksw.com/void/Dataset is also part of the ground work |
| 20:20:48 | <melvster_> | nice article, i hadnt read it, i know about piggybacking off dns, is that how bonjour works? |
| 20:21:09 | <kidehen> | melvster_: Bonjour is mDNS, yes |
| 20:22:36 | <melvster_> | ah multicast he always wanted to do that |
| 20:22:56 | <kidehen> | melvster_: melvster_: the goal is to make creation of entire LOD cloud instances, or specific bubbles easy for anyone that needs to use this data corpus as a starting point. Goal is to diminish the pivotal role of the LOD cloud, DBpedia over time, they are are important seeds, not panaceas re. Linked Data Web and eventual "Data as a Service" based economny |
| 20:23:07 | <kidehen> | melvster_: s/economny/economy |
| 20:23:50 | <kidehen> | melvster_: grand scheme is to enable easy realization and comprehension of: URI as new medium of value exchange reality |
| 20:24:00 | <kidehen> | melvster_: re. Web aspect of Internet |
| 20:25:28 | <kidehen> | melvster_: the real fun starts when old media companies realize that there is immense value to be culled from meshing their data with LOD-Cloud data with the details of those meshes grounded in URIs minted from their domains etc.. |
| 20:25:32 | <melvster_> | yes is very interesting, i need to give it a bit more thought, the guy who wrote bonjour taught me to program when i was a kid, but i didnt read up on it till now, i think it's also important for devices or clients to be sparql endpoints, but as you say you need a system 'that just works' like bonjour ... it's a nice page i need to think a bit more about discovery ... |
| 20:27:45 | <kidehen> | melvster_: yes. we need to remember what's staple on the desktop and apply to burgeoning Linked Data Web re. higher level apps and interfaces |
| 20:27:51 | <melvster_> | id never thought of it as data as a service, but you're right |
| 20:28:17 | <kidehen> | melvster_: data is the new electricity, just takes a while for it to sink :-) |
| 20:29:15 | <melvster_> | it's funny for an economy you need transactions, but transactions is just data |
| 20:29:16 | <kidehen> | melvster_: put valuable stuff behind your URIs and it will be a source of vitality in the dense mesh we know as the Web |
| 20:29:24 | <kidehen> | melvster_: yep!! |
| 20:29:47 | <kidehen> | melvster_: the economic crisis is putting the finishing touches to old currency as I type :-) |
| 20:31:17 | <melvster_> | according to the IMF we havent had the crisis yet, we're less than 1/4 of the way through it, but that's another story ... :) |
| 20:31:52 | <melvster_> | i guess we need technology to be able to allow us to do more on a limited budget, to help us recover |
| 20:32:45 | <melvster_> | yes perhaps data is the currency of the new ecoomy, i handnt though of it that way before, but it makes some sense |
| 20:32:47 | <kidehen> | melvster_: Yes, and that will always be the case. "Do more with less", what technology enables you "Do more with less" and then virally propagate this new kind of value through the ecosystem. |
| 20:33:00 | <kidehen> | melvster_: the opposite happened en route to current crisis :-( |
| 20:33:18 | <kidehen> | melvster_: spend Billions producing nothing of value bar NOISE. |
| 20:34:18 | <kidehen> | melvster_: so in the past Marketing had sway of Quality. The scales are about to tip the other way, because: "you have to do more with less". |
| 20:35:51 | <kidehen> | melvster_: customers can't afford the: "buy my way out of trouble" approach anymore. Example, look how long data integration has been a mess globally, and its only gotten worse each year. |
| 20:36:07 | <kidehen> | melvster_: Linked Data is the ultimate Data Integration Middleware :-) |
| 20:36:29 | <kidehen> | melvster_: and the unit of value is simply the URI, what data meshes it exposes etc.. |
| 20:36:57 | <kidehen> | melvster_: anyway, baby calls, gtg :-) |
| 20:45:34 | <melvster_> | :) |
| 20:55:37 | <Anchakor> | would be interesting if later, when data as service is fully deployed, some kind of currency would evolve, which you could trade with other people - "Would you trade me <commodity> for 30000 triples from my web of data cache?" :) |
| 20:58:06 | <kidehen> | Anchakor: yes, but its not about a bland # of triples, rather, access to your data space. Basically, its all about "You" :-) "You" are the new media magnate :-) This is why your Web ID is so vital :-) |
| 20:58:24 | <kidehen> | Anchakor: see my blog posts for more, truly gtg now :-) |
| 20:59:09 | <Anchakor> | kidehen: yes... well more than you rather your data :) (data=money - we are back to where we are now! :)) |
| 21:00:11 | <kidehen> | Anchakor: but currency changes :-) |
| 21:00:14 | <kidehen> | bye |
| 21:00:38 | <Anchakor> | bye |
| 22:14:40 | <melvster_> | "If you?re running on OSX, then mDNSResponder is already installed; if you?re running on Linux, then you?ll have to download, compile and install the package from Apple (again, see later episodes); if you?re on Windows, you?re on your own." |
| 22:24:39 | <snail> | "if you're melvster_ you have character encoding issues" |
| 22:42:13 | <PovAddict> | melvster_: package from apple? doesn't avahi work? |
| 22:46:27 | <melvster_> | snail: yes sorry, cut an paste from http://www.floop.org.uk/eagle/discovering-sparql PovAddict: yes avahi works |
| 22:49:10 | <snail> | Does someone have a good example of how to encode "Agent A believes predicate X relation Y" ideally in RDF/XML ? |
| 23:04:23 | <kidehen> | http://knol.google.com/k/twain/the-global-brain-the-semantic-web/31fjy9fjsu1x2/19# |
| 23:04:44 | <kidehen> | M: Interesting page developing on Knol re. Global Brain |
| 23:19:29 | <kasei> | snail: I'd imagine you'd reify on X (giving you statement Z), and then assert A believes Z. |
| 23:21:14 | <kasei> | oh, i may have misread the "predicate X relation Y" bit... what does A believe? (X :rel Y)? |
| 23:24:26 | <kasei> | something like this: <rdf:Description rdf:about="X"><relation rdf:ID="Z"><rdf:Description rdf:about="Y"/></relation></rdf:Description> |
| 23:24:31 | <kasei> | ... <rdf:Description rdf:about="A"><believes rdf:resource="Z" /></rdf:Description> |
| 23:25:14 | <kasei> | this produces both (X relation Y) and the reification of that statement. it's more wordy if you just want the reification (without the actual statement). |
| 23:44:51 | <snail> | kasei: i just want to reification. i'm going to have to read up on reification, i suspect |
| 23:45:22 | <snail> | kasei: thanks |
Back to channel and daily index: content-negotiated html turtle