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| 00:12:16 | <nslater> | would it be easy to make a grddl profile for docbook->foaf... im a grddl n00b |
| 03:59:18 | <mhausenblas> | ACTION wave hello to the wonderful SWorld |
| 03:59:29 | <nslater> | ACTION waves back |
| 04:00:29 | <si> | greetings |
| 04:01:13 | <mhausenblas> | hi there |
| 04:01:28 | <mhausenblas> | so, we finally entered LAst Call with RDFa :) |
| 04:01:36 | <mhausenblas> | http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Drafts/ED-rdfa-syntax-20080217/Overview.html |
| 04:01:57 | <mhausenblas> | A:| Last Call Working Draft of RDFa Syntax |
| 04:02:17 | <mhausenblas> | ACTION hopes we make it ;) |
| 05:03:00 | <adu> | what does it all mean? |
| 05:04:25 | <si> | 42 |
| 05:04:42 | <adu> | thank you! finally an answer! |
| 05:04:55 | <adu> | now, what was the question again? |
| 05:04:55 | <adu> | lol |
| 05:05:23 | <adu> | I'm wondering what the problem is with technology |
| 05:05:34 | <adu> | there is certainly enough of it |
| 05:05:45 | <adu> | the problem isn't a lack of technology |
| 05:05:54 | <adu> | the problem isn't a lack of solutions |
| 05:06:14 | <si> | what is lacking a solution? |
| 05:06:18 | <adu> | the problem is immediacy |
| 05:06:27 | <si> | i think part of the porblem is what is 'profitable' is not always what is most useful in the long run for everyone |
| 05:06:40 | <adu> | that too |
| 05:07:38 | <si> | so what gets invested in is pretty predicatble non-novel and useless (ie, facebook apps, with some ad-monetization MBA promise somewehr) |
| 05:08:00 | <adu> | whats MBA? |
| 05:08:07 | <si> | Master of Business Administration |
| 05:08:09 | <adu> | o |
| 05:08:13 | <si> | its a type of degree offered by unviersities |
| 05:08:16 | <adu> | ic |
| 05:08:45 | <si> | metaweb got 60 million to make a proprietary version of essentialy Virtuoso or Sesame (god knows what their business plan is) |
| 05:08:52 | <adu> | i don't see how that has anything to do with 'ad-monetization' |
| 05:08:54 | <si> | 1/100th of that could keep like 6 people working on sesame or virtuoso for a year.. |
| 05:09:10 | <si> | but of course, then Goldman wouldnt be able to flip their MWEB shares to Yhoo at a 200% profit, so it doesnt work that way |
| 05:09:32 | <si> | considering MySQL got bought for so much, maybe things will change. but i dont have my hopes up. MYSQL and SKYPE were pretty rare (and one might argue idiotic) deals |
| 05:09:40 | <si> | what solutions do you need? |
| 05:09:42 | <si> | that dont exist |
| 05:09:45 | <si> | or are not good enough |
| 05:09:51 | <si> | or whatever was your question/probilem |
| 05:10:45 | <si> | ive got a whole laundry list |
| 05:10:53 | <si> | im currently on 'web browser that doesnt suck' |
| 05:10:58 | <adu> | my current problem has to do with DHCP/NAT/PAT but thats a different story |
| 05:11:00 | <si> | dillo2 is good but has bugs. so i think im gonna write one using GTK2HS |
| 05:11:07 | <si> | beause i cant really hack on c++ to save my life |
| 05:11:23 | <si> | oh yeah |
| 05:11:31 | <si> | we need IPV6 and HIP and the death of NAT, definitely |
| 05:11:33 | <adu> | I love Haskell |
| 05:11:42 | <adu> | whasts HIP:? |
| 05:11:57 | <si> | decouples IP from its host identity function |
| 05:12:07 | <si> | IP is location, HIP is a persistent identifier that outlives address |
| 05:12:24 | <si> | so you can do distribyted semweb stuff (assuming NAT isnt in the say) and have it persist over wifi changeups, etc |
| 05:12:34 | <si> | i change my IP address a ton, and everything breaks :/ |
| 05:12:37 | <si> | irc included of course |
| 05:12:39 | <adu> | o wow, that would solve so many problems! |
| 05:12:44 | <si> | but also smtp tunnels to my mutt server, etc |
| 05:12:47 | <adu> | not to mention dynamic IP |
| 05:12:52 | <si> | yes |
| 05:12:57 | <si> | HIP can 'renegotiate' without closing conection! |
| 05:13:02 | <si> | persistence across IP change |
| 05:13:10 | <si> | if both IPs change at once, it can use DHT to lookup the new IP |
| 05:13:10 | <adu> | that would rock! |
| 05:13:20 | <si> | theres lots of IETF drafts and a couple implementations |
| 05:13:28 | <adu> | but all that stuff should just work |
| 05:13:32 | <si> | yep |
| 05:13:34 | <si> | nobody is funding it |
| 05:13:36 | <si> | since its not a facebook app |
| 05:13:40 | <si> | or a potential GOOG acquisition target |
| 05:13:48 | <si> | if we had distribute p2p semweb, nobody would need google anymore |
| 05:13:54 | <adu> | I'm always (being for the last 10 years), about semantics and representations |
| 05:13:57 | <si> | they couold just find what they wanted via faceted searching of aDHT or whatever |
| 05:14:02 | <si> | kind of like torrents already are ;) |
| 05:14:10 | <si> | content piracy is the leader of new technology |
| 05:14:50 | <si> | so, i guess my plan is create a big enough competitor to google, that i get acquired or they try to kill me (with money) |
| 05:15:04 | <nelix_> | si: wb that does not suck is high on my list |
| 05:15:06 | <si> | since i cant get people to hire me to make "DHT enabled HIP-URI based semantic platforms' or ahtever |
| 05:15:08 | <nelix_> | si: although kde is pretty good |
| 05:15:10 | <si> | wb? |
| 05:15:14 | <nelix_> | web browser |
| 05:15:20 | <si> | konqueror? |
| 05:15:23 | <nelix_> | yeah |
| 05:15:24 | <si> | firefox is just too slow on linux |
| 05:15:31 | <si> | and too much kitchen sink |
| 05:15:33 | <nelix_> | agreed |
| 05:15:37 | <si> | esp now wiht SQL, and offline stuff, and this and that |
| 05:15:37 | <nelix_> | k is just as bad |
| 05:15:40 | <nelix_> | although much faster |
| 05:16:14 | <adu> | I've been designing an IDE for the last 10 years, and so far my plans involve the following projects: http://interreality.org/ (also #vos), almost all W3C specs, Haskell, and Parrot |
| 05:16:21 | <si> | with real semantic data formats, we dont depend on HTML as much |
| 05:16:26 | <si> | or custom JS |
| 05:16:30 | <si> | you can just make a ncurses rdf browser |
| 05:16:34 | <si> | and some input filters in GRDDL or otherwise |
| 05:16:39 | <si> | and browser in the terminal, gopher style :) |
| 05:16:47 | <si> | or of course, browse in something thats not slow as hell like firefox |
| 05:16:55 | <si> | some minimal cairo/pango thing or qt thing or whatever |
| 05:17:09 | <si> | cool |
| 05:17:19 | <si> | did you recently announce your IDE to haskell list, or was that something else |
| 05:17:24 | <si> | i tried Yi, it used incredible RAM. back to emacs ;0 |
| 05:17:25 | <adu> | nope |
| 05:18:02 | <adu> | si: I have no code, unless you count the hundreds of 10K projects scattered across my HD amounting to failed attempts at code management |
| 05:18:11 | <si> | hee |
| 05:18:16 | <si> | i started making git repos all over my drive |
| 05:18:17 | <si> | for that purpose |
| 05:18:22 | <adu> | heh |
| 05:18:42 | <si> | when its good enough i push to an externa USB HD, or setup acct on repo.or.cz... |
| 05:18:51 | <si> | but yeah, i understand completely |
| 05:18:58 | <adu> | I have 2 projects that have come pretty far, but they are just opengl apps written in C and Python |
| 05:18:59 | <si> | to me, refactoring and rewriting is important |
| 05:19:08 | <adu> | now I'm working on an OpenGL shell in Haskell |
| 05:19:11 | <si> | cool |
| 05:19:23 | <adu> | I think this will be the one... |
| 05:19:30 | <si> | i am mainly in search of decent canvas classes atm |
| 05:19:33 | <adu> | Haskell is so easy when it comes to code management |
| 05:19:39 | <si> | QT is nice, but theres no haskell/ocaml bindings afaik |
| 05:19:56 | <si> | Cairo afaik does not even have a 'bind events to drawn pieces' api |
| 05:20:03 | <si> | you have to build your own canvas class on it.. |
| 05:20:28 | <adu> | hmm |
| 05:20:31 | <si> | so theres a few (gocanvas, etc) bt all grossly immature and mildly broken |
| 05:20:40 | <nelix_> | si: if i were to make a WB, i would target xhtml2 rendering, with no css support at all |
| 05:20:41 | <si> | anwyays, im going to try gtk2hs, and see how it is |
| 05:20:50 | <si> | nelix_: how would styling work? |
| 05:20:56 | <si> | nelix_: no styling? |
| 05:20:56 | <nelix_> | it wouldnt |
| 05:20:59 | <si> | heh |
| 05:21:11 | <nelix_> | i like information |
| 05:21:13 | <si> | same |
| 05:21:23 | <nelix_> | art is cool, but i need not have my information woven into complicated art |
| 05:21:29 | <si> | i disable CSS and JS in firefox |
| 05:21:43 | <nelix_> | you might have some basic user css |
| 05:21:47 | <si> | well |
| 05:21:49 | <si> | i use the layout |
| 05:21:51 | <si> | but not the colors |
| 05:21:57 | <adu> | I use NoScript |
| 05:22:00 | <si> | same |
| 05:22:05 | <nelix_> | the WB stack is so huge |
| 05:22:12 | <nelix_> | so many standards and half standards |
| 05:22:14 | <si> | with many interlocking dependencies |
| 05:22:20 | <si> | have you read HTML5? |
| 05:22:23 | <si> | its a beast |
| 05:22:44 | <nelix_> | yeah |
| 05:22:48 | <nelix_> | worst idea ever |
| 05:22:51 | <adu> | have you heard of VOS? |
| 05:22:54 | <nelix_> | no |
| 05:22:58 | <si> | what is that? |
| 05:23:38 | <adu> | it stands for Virtual Object System (http://interreality.org/) |
| 05:23:41 | <adu> | also #vos |
| 05:23:42 | <si> | oh |
| 05:23:51 | <si> | like OS2 network object system? |
| 05:24:03 | <adu> | its the missing piece to VRML/X3D |
| 05:24:14 | <si> | this looks like Croquet |
| 05:24:35 | <adu> | its similar in theory |
| 05:24:54 | <adu> | although Croquet was gear to be 3D from the beginning |
| 05:25:16 | <adu> | VOS provides much more low-level features, and adds 3D as an add-on |
| 05:25:21 | <si> | are the hyperlinks in VOS compatible with HTTP? |
| 05:25:37 | <adu> | um, i dunno |
| 05:27:17 | <adu> | but anyways, I'd like to model the interface of my IDE after either: http://www.perceptivepixel.com/ or: http://bumptop.com/ |
| 05:27:39 | <si> | id like an IDE to work with networked resources |
| 05:27:45 | <si> | and local |
| 05:27:51 | <adu> | si: what do you mean? |
| 05:27:58 | <si> | accesing local files in firefox is so suboptimal/difficult |
| 05:28:38 | <adu> | resources meaning preferences/default-skin? |
| 05:28:50 | <si> | i mean instead of writing code youre writing apps using a GUI |
| 05:29:03 | <adu> | Visual Programming? |
| 05:29:08 | <si> | and its all running locally, using HTTP/RDF as needed (and has a HTTP server of its own running) |
| 05:29:13 | <adu> | or Tangible Values? |
| 05:29:34 | <si> | ive used Pure Data in the past, and made some GUI extensions. and have been reading on conal Elliot's stuff |
| 05:29:52 | <adu> | http://conal.net/papers/Eros/ |
| 05:29:53 | <si> | but im coming at this from music composition, and networked-app collaboration tools |
| 05:30:02 | <si> | rather than 'synthetic image filters' which seems to be his main test case |
| 05:30:18 | <si> | he's stil god tho ;) |
| 05:30:31 | <si> | im not really sure how much 'difficult' stuff he glazes over, in terms of whats possible in pure functional |
| 05:30:34 | <adu> | who is? |
| 05:30:43 | <si> | like i guess gtk2hs people cheat and store state in GTK widgets, and what not |
| 05:31:08 | <si> | im happy storing state on the local FS, in a RDF store |
| 05:31:30 | <adu> | ya |
| 05:31:38 | <adu> | o you were talking about Conal Elliot |
| 05:31:40 | <adu> | ic |
| 05:31:46 | <si> | i havent read all the reactive papers yet |
| 05:31:54 | <si> | im not sure how much of that is useful for an IDE |
| 05:32:08 | <si> | where youre more manipulating source or some kind of visual AST |
| 05:32:43 | <adu> | Ya, effective real-time tree manipulation is essential |
| 05:33:01 | <si> | didnt Apple already clone most of jeff han's stuff on iphone |
| 05:33:09 | <adu> | since tree's appear in XML, RDF, FileSystems, Scene Graphs, GUIs |
| 05:33:10 | <si> | i mean, its just finger gestures generating differnet input, no? |
| 05:33:17 | <si> | he doenst go into 'workflow' much |
| 05:33:41 | <adu> | nope, Jeff Han's Gestures are quite different |
| 05:33:52 | <si> | trees appear in RDF? you mean the implicit tree in the URI paths? |
| 05:34:02 | <adu> | no, i mean graphs |
| 05:34:04 | <si> | some people say URIs are opaque, and sure they are. but that / is useful |
| 05:34:10 | <adu> | tree's are special cases of graphs |
| 05:34:16 | <si> | ok |
| 05:34:24 | <si> | acyclic |
| 05:34:36 | <adu> | right |
| 05:34:58 | <si> | but yeah thats why im into haskell now. you cant really rebalance a big tree in almost- realtime in python/ruby |
| 05:35:00 | <adu> | but I think the key-combo is already decided for trees in general |
| 05:35:07 | <si> | w/o some orthogonal C lib anyways |
| 05:35:15 | <si> | which is? |
| 05:35:19 | <adu> | my favorite way of navigating trees is the MacOSX Finder in column view |
| 05:35:27 | <si> | mm |
| 05:35:34 | <si> | how do you switch columns |
| 05:35:36 | <si> | ctrl-right? |
| 05:35:39 | <si> | tab? |
| 05:35:44 | <adu> | left/right/up/down/first-char |
| 05:35:49 | <si> | i havent used OSX since 10.0 :) |
| 05:35:49 | <adu> | oh, <Command>-3 |
| 05:36:19 | <adu> | no, to switch collumns you just press left/right |
| 05:36:27 | <si> | ok |
| 05:36:36 | <adu> | up/down moves the selection to different files in that folder |
| 05:37:09 | <si> | surely you have some ideas on 3d tree manipulation |
| 05:37:10 | <adu> | thats the way navigating trees should be |
| 05:37:17 | <si> | i dug 'greg's browser' as it was called on os8 |
| 05:37:25 | <si> | which was just the nextstep browser rewritten for Mac |
| 05:37:27 | <adu> | well, graphs are much different |
| 05:37:49 | <si> | always laugh at that isaviz stuff |
| 05:37:52 | <si> | who the fuck would acutally use that |
| 05:37:55 | <si> | nobody does |
| 05:38:08 | <si> | its just to get grant funding ('oh wow, gee wiz bang, you guys rule' |
| 05:38:15 | <si> | you animate the arcs moving around hehe |
| 05:38:34 | <adu> | does that use graphviz? |
| 05:38:45 | <si> | no but same idea |
| 05:38:48 | <adu> | ic |
| 05:39:01 | <si> | you show the current resource and all the arcs to some depth, i guess |
| 05:39:05 | <adu> | well, graphviz would be nice if it was real-time, but its more of a compiler now |
| 05:39:25 | <si> | i dont mind using 'familiar' interfaces, but faceted filtering is so common that a generic one that could be used for email/blgoposts/whateverelse is fine to |
| 05:39:32 | <si> | yah |
| 05:39:42 | <si> | if there was a graphviz class for qt, or something |
| 05:40:04 | <adu> | Apple had a prototype for viewing trees in 3D called 'HotSpot', but I didn't like that very much |
| 05:40:13 | <si> | hrm, tihnk i tried it |
| 05:40:17 | <si> | or one called 'Project X' |
| 05:40:20 | <si> | which was like a 3d version of cyberdog |
| 05:40:22 | <si> | if ir ecall |
| 05:41:26 | <si> | theres not even ver many 2d browsers |
| 05:41:28 | <adu> | heh CyberDog was a joke |
| 05:41:58 | <si> | the barriers of entry are so high, since people like their JS and CSS and layout perfection so much |
| 05:42:30 | <si> | if i had money id fund at least a half dozen web browsers. dillo to start with, btu also lightweight classes for qt, gtk.. |
| 05:43:08 | <si> | dillo2 is fast as hell. seems to be freezing up on blocking HTTP reqs for cookies, tho :/ |
| 05:43:10 | <adu> | Ideally, the only system interface for trees would be the scrollbar, which would serve 2 purposes, and the elements of a tree or a graph would be displayed according to some plugin-system where elements could decide their own rendering if it wasn't the default rendering. |
| 05:43:29 | <si> | just a sroll bar? |
| 05:43:41 | <si> | lke for siblings on one node? |
| 05:43:48 | <si> | a 3d scroll handle? |
| 05:43:48 | <adu> | (1) Scrollbars would indicate the connection between the parent/self and the children/links-from-self, and |
| 05:44:18 | <adu> | (2) Scrollbars would allow the user to skim thru a large amount of chilren/links-from-self |
| 05:44:53 | <adu> | my idea isn't really 2D/3D since I have instances of it imagined for both |
| 05:45:39 | <adu> | if you look at MacOSX Finder column view the only thing between columns is a scollbar, so it makes sense |
| 05:45:59 | <si> | so scroller + arrows? |
| 05:46:11 | <si> | its important to be easily usable from _only_ keyboard or _only_ mouse |
| 05:46:15 | <si> | mac likes to require keyboard _and_ mouse :/ |
| 05:46:20 | <si> | and htey call themselves HI gods heh |
| 05:46:25 | <adu> | yes, but the current idea of a scrollbar needs serious rethinking |
| 05:46:35 | <si> | i never use them |
| 05:46:37 | <si> | i use pageup/down keys |
| 05:46:40 | <si> | arrows for finer grain |
| 05:46:52 | <si> | the fact you have to 'fish them out' sucks for one |
| 05:46:55 | <si> | so i think jeff han has the righ tidea |
| 05:46:57 | <si> | screw em |
| 05:47:04 | <si> | scrolling itself doesnt need to go away |
| 05:47:05 | <si> | thats good |
| 05:47:07 | <si> | its just the bars |
| 05:47:21 | <si> | they waste space and are finicky |
| 05:47:38 | <adu> | well, the 3D Scollbar could be simply a set of lines from the parent-node to the child-nodes |
| 05:47:38 | <si> | plus they have an 'end' |
| 05:47:47 | <si> | most of my stuff doesnt end, if anbything youd eventyaly loop back |
| 05:47:49 | <adu> | there wouldn't have to be any arrows anywhere |
| 05:48:15 | <si> | so you cycle thru children on a right motion or something? |
| 05:48:28 | <si> | i mean, you have tos omehow say 'go down in the tree' vs 'iterate siblings |
| 05:48:53 | <adu> | what do you mean "iterate siblings"? |
| 05:49:04 | <si> | arcs sharing a common parent, or whatever |
| 05:49:20 | <si> | at this point, i have a ton of ideas, and could read a ton more, and need kickass canvas/scenegraph classes |
| 05:49:27 | <si> | pref ones that work from haskell ocaml or scheme |
| 05:49:36 | <si> | OSG is like.. big. and stuff. |
| 05:49:41 | <si> | Cairo lacks even 'what did i just click on' functionality |
| 05:49:50 | <si> | and QT is a monolithic hog (but it does have a nice canvas class) |
| 05:49:56 | <adu> | oh, I though I described that already by how MacOSX Finder column view does it... up/down selects siblings and left/right selects parent/first-child |
| 05:50:01 | <si> | i think gentoo just broke up qt in 4.4, nm |
| 05:50:12 | <si> | well |
| 05:50:13 | <si> | when querying |
| 05:50:18 | <si> | you are talking about merging 2 trees |
| 05:50:21 | <si> | set intersections |
| 05:50:34 | <si> | i guess you could just use a column view for each facet |
| 05:50:37 | <si> | but, theres other poossibilities too |
| 05:51:01 | <si> | i wnt an 'exhibit' that works on millions of nodes in the dataset |
| 05:51:10 | <si> | which means, for one dont write it in JS, in a browser |
| 05:51:18 | <si> | but also , theres a ton of GUI ideas that havent been tried |
| 05:51:59 | <si> | newegg is good |
| 05:52:03 | <si> | i always can find what i want real fast |
| 05:52:14 | <si> | eg a '3.5 " HD > 800 gb made by samsung or seagate and costing less than 300" etc |
| 05:52:29 | <si> | usualyl its just a single facet is narrows at once, and the possible facets are presented |
| 05:52:50 | <adu> | what do you mean by "exhibit"? |
| 05:52:59 | <si> | http://simile.mit.edu/exhibit |
| 05:54:31 | <adu> | hmm |
| 05:54:58 | <si> | i store my RDF in the fs tree, ive browsed it with Konqueror before |
| 05:55:04 | <si> | but kdelibs is such a bloat |
| 05:55:09 | <si> | and id have to make some konqueror plugins |
| 05:55:15 | <si> | not sure its worth it reinstalling KDE just for a halfway decent tree-browser |
| 05:55:23 | <si> | is there a osx style colun browser for linux |
| 05:55:26 | <adu> | have you heard of CyN? |
| 05:55:26 | <si> | i think theres 'evidence' for e17 |
| 05:55:29 | <si> | nope |
| 05:55:46 | <si> | i guess i could use FUSE |
| 05:55:53 | <si> | to remount the existing fs as a virtual one |
| 05:55:59 | <si> | where the metafiles are made invisible |
| 05:56:07 | <si> | and then use existing tree browsers... |
| 05:56:19 | <si> | thing is , all the fs browsers make assumptions |
| 05:56:26 | <si> | like youd only one one reosurce in the preview pane at once |
| 05:56:32 | <si> | not say 10 , or 20 |
| 05:56:33 | <si> | eg a resultset |
| 05:56:41 | <si> | all being previewed (eg their text contents, image contents, etc) |
| 05:56:52 | <si> | so, im not sure even trying to force things to work in eisting browsers is worth it |
| 05:57:07 | <si> | i guess theres 'icon view', but good luck maing a text literal display readably in that |
| 05:58:27 | <adu> | I've been learning alot about patterns lately |
| 05:58:52 | <si> | got any reading suggested? |
| 05:58:56 | <si> | im more on an implementation kick |
| 05:59:04 | <adu> | well |
| 05:59:12 | <si> | reading Okasaki's DS book. trying to find a canvas/scenegraph class thats minimalist and doesnt suck, etc |
| 05:59:16 | <adu> | I have some languages to learn |
| 05:59:31 | <si> | more and more thinking of bilding stuff on tinyscheme or similar. or hacking up |
| 05:59:53 | <si> | Fluxus heh |
| 05:59:56 | <si> | ghc is just enormous, im fine with a less complicated type system and list comprehension syntax if it means a smaller toolchain |
| 06:00:08 | <si> | whats that gradual-typed scheme i saw mentioned on arc forum, hmm |
| 06:04:08 | <adu> | Regex, Awk, Haskell "case", Scheme "syntax-rules", M4, and http://web.engr.oregonstate.edu/~erwig/papers/abstracts.html#Haskell00 |
| 06:04:49 | <adu> | I love the file name "PGandTP" hehe |
| 06:06:21 | <adu> | http://reference.wolfram.com/mathematica/guide/Patterns.html |
| 06:10:09 | <adu> | http://www.daimi.au.dk/~beta/Manuals/latest/beta-intro/Patterns.html#H1_3 |
| 06:12:03 | <si> | thx |
| 06:12:16 | <adu> | http://research.microsoft.com/~simonpj/Haskell/guards.html |
| 06:12:32 | <adu> | i love patterns |
| 06:13:52 | <si> | heh |
| 06:13:56 | <si> | i got ~erwig in my papers queue already |
| 06:14:06 | <adu> | papers queue? |
| 06:14:15 | <si> | directory of ps.gz and pdf files to read |
| 06:14:19 | <adu> | ic |
| 06:14:22 | <si> | i havent buildt a mind-uploading machine yet |
| 06:14:30 | <adu> | lolol |
| 06:14:36 | <dorian> | when you do i'd like one |
| 06:14:39 | <adu> | me2 |
| 06:15:00 | <dorian> | i'm trying to get a grand unified theory together |
| 06:15:11 | <dorian> | of how to get stuff into my brain en masse |
| 06:15:14 | <adu> | i have one, but it explains nothing |
| 06:15:46 | <adu> | o learning? my mom is an expert at learning |
| 06:16:04 | <dorian> | mostly a matter of how to organize the time |
| 06:16:18 | <dorian> | i'm trying to do a self-similar model of time management |
| 06:17:08 | <dorian> | grand supercycle sort of thing |
| 06:18:12 | <adu> | (1) Plan (2) Monitor (3) Evaluate (4) Customize |
| 06:18:23 | <adu> | the four learning strategies |
| 06:18:44 | <adu> | my mom's written many books about them |
| 06:19:33 | <si> | im not a robot. learning comes automatic whne theres curiosity |
| 06:19:38 | <si> | maybe 1.2.3.4 stuff wroks for robots |
| 06:19:49 | <adu> | heh |
| 06:19:56 | <si> | 'learning for dummies' |
| 06:20:00 | <si> | she should write that one |
| 06:20:07 | <adu> | indeed |
| 06:20:08 | <dorian> | i got a copy of 'how to solve it' by george polya |
| 06:20:13 | <dorian> | it's pretty interesting |
| 06:22:33 | <adu> | From my experience, solving generalizations is easier than solving specializations |
| 06:23:53 | <dorian> | there's a lot more entropy in the latter |
| 06:24:16 | <adu> | whats entropy? |
| 06:24:34 | <dorian> | randomness |
| 06:24:56 | <adu> | how is solving special problems random? |
| 06:25:01 | <adu> | i just don't see it |
| 06:25:05 | <dorian> | nevermind. |
| 06:29:38 | <adu> | si: do you have any papers about Join calculus? |
| 06:29:48 | <si> | nop |
| 06:30:08 | <si> | hrm |
| 06:30:12 | <si> | sounds like the pi calculus a bit |
| 06:30:17 | <si> | i think maybe i read hte wikipedia page :) |
| 06:30:23 | <adu> | yes, for concurrent computation models |
| 06:30:29 | <adu> | also http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unification |
| 06:30:33 | <adu> | for logic programming |
| 06:30:54 | <adu> | very similar to pattern matching |
| 06:39:16 | <adu> | Well, I'm getting tired, I might as well try to pattern match the pillow on my bed with my head, unless unification fails... :P |
| 08:25:44 | <chlorium> | hey, i'm experiencing some problems working with swig, c++, and python |
| 08:25:53 | <chlorium> | i have a method that returns an std::list, like so: |
| 08:26:00 | <kwijibo> | wrong swig :) |
| 08:26:09 | <chlorium> | er |
| 08:26:11 | <chlorium> | oh |
| 08:26:12 | <chlorium> | heh |
| 08:26:19 | <chlorium> | i usually ignore the topic |
| 08:26:28 | <chlorium> | but that's not such a good policy :-) |
| 08:26:49 | <kwijibo> | no worries |
| 09:18:00 | <EtnaRosso> | morning all |
| 09:19:30 | <kwijibo> | morning |
| 09:27:28 | <tommorris> | http://barcampbrighton.eventwax.com/barcampbrighton2 |
| 09:27:37 | <tommorris> | F:|BarCamp Brighton 2 signup |
| 09:27:53 | <EtnaRosso> | danja are you there? |
| 09:28:00 | <tommorris> | F: At 1230 GMT, get over on to this page and signup! |
| 09:28:45 | <tommorris> | F: /me hopes that SemanticCamp might prompt more SWIGgers to go to BarCamps. |
| 09:42:09 | <libby> | F: the london one was good fun - thanks tommorris and all :-) |
| 09:42:28 | <kwijibo> | ACTION waves to tommorris and libby |
| 09:42:41 | <kwijibo> | yes, cheers tommorris |
| 09:47:37 | <tommorris> | thanks folks |
| 10:01:51 | <EtnaRosso> | i'm searching some example of "weighted" roles implementations using DL |
| 10:02:26 | <EtnaRosso> | for example how to encode an assertion like |
| 10:02:41 | <EtnaRosso> | "The distance between A and B is 4 Miles"? |
| 10:05:38 | <gromgull> | http://www.semanticscripting.org/SFSW2008/challenge.htm |
| 10:05:51 | <gromgull> | G:|Semantic Scripting Challenge at ESWC2008 |
| 10:06:15 | <gromgull> | G:Part of the Scripting for Semantic Web workshop: http://www.semanticscripting.org/SFSW2008 |
| 10:06:30 | <kwijibo> | EtnaRosso: would that be an n-ary relationship? http://www.w3.org/TR/2004/WD-swbp-n-aryRelations-20040721/ |
| 10:06:30 | <gromgull> | G: Wonderful amazing prizes from Talis! |
| 10:06:42 | <Arnia> | Hm. Interesting |
| 10:07:03 | <EtnaRosso> | really i was thinking something quite different and more processable |
| 10:08:19 | <EtnaRosso> | to define classes like |
| 10:08:45 | <EtnaRosso> | "less or equal 13 Miles" and put |
| 10:09:25 | <EtnaRosso> | and individual (A,B) that belongs to this class |
| 10:09:32 | <EtnaRosso> | i'm not shure it is a good idea |
| 10:12:25 | <gromgull> | G:First prize kindly sponsored by Talis! |
| 10:33:55 | <tommorris> | danja_: dannyayers.com seems to be down |
| 10:34:21 | <danja_> | thanks tommorris - currently rebooting |
| 10:34:53 | <danja_> | ACTION wonders if tommorris has blogged re. camp yet |
| 10:35:04 | <tommorris> | I'm just writing up a guide on how complex microformats could use a GRDDL-like process for complex meaning determination and wanted to point to your discussion of GRDDL and "following one's nose" |
| 10:35:19 | <tommorris> | It's a discussion we had at SemanticCamp |
| 10:35:35 | <tommorris> | I'll meta-blog it later - ie. talk about the camp rather than about some of the ideas |
| 10:37:50 | <danja_> | cool |
| 10:38:23 | <danja_> | ACTION points to timbl & DanC re. nose-following |
| 10:38:51 | <danja_> | .g the basic follow the nose way the web works |
| 10:38:54 | <phenny> | danja_: http://inkdroid.org/journal/2008/01/04/following-your-nose-to-the-web-of-data/ |
| 10:39:41 | <tommorris> | thank you. gotta go out but will finish it later |
| 10:39:51 | <danja_> | cheers tommorris |
| 10:39:57 | <tommorris> | see http://premasagar.com/events/semanticcamplondon/demo for the sort of HTML I'm trying to figure out |
| 10:40:15 | <danja_> | .g the basic follow-your-nose way the web works |
| 10:40:18 | <phenny> | danja_: http://blogs.talis.com/mt/mt-search.cgi?IncludeBlogs=7&search=rules&submit.x=1 |
| 10:40:24 | <danja_> | heh |
| 10:41:04 | <danja_> | sometimes you need a long nose |
| 10:41:57 | <danja_> | http://www.w3.org/DesignIssues/diagrams/arch/follow.png |
| 10:42:18 | <danja_> | H:| the basic follow-your-nose way the web works |
| 10:43:05 | <danja_> | H: timbl's diagram - fun already, can't wait for it to get grddl & sparql too |
| 10:59:25 | <si> | ACTION finds hypertext.rb in ruby-gnome2 and proceeds with firefox elimination plan |
| 11:07:46 | <tuukkah> | one more complication to the diagram: rdf autodiscovery links from html |
| 11:08:10 | <tuukkah> | rdfa |
| 11:31:40 | <kwijibo> | tommorris: how did your rdf for beginners session go? |
| 11:44:01 | <bengee> | http://groups.drupal.org/node/8930 |
| 11:44:03 | <phenny> | bengee: 15 Feb 20:02Z <mhausenblas> tell bengee /me looking at http://drupal.org/project/arc_rdf_store and dunno where to download the module or am I kinda stupid? |
| 11:44:41 | <bengee> | I:|RDF API for Drupal 6.x |
| 11:48:25 | <bengee> | I: geting closer to a coordinated effort for RDF in Drupal |
| 11:48:37 | <bengee> | I1: getting closer to a coordinated effort for RDF in Drupal |
| 12:02:41 | <kwijibo> | ACTION liking the api |
| 12:13:47 | <mhausenblas> | hey bengee |
| 12:14:30 | <bengee> | heya |
| 12:14:49 | <mhausenblas> | hm, phenny did warn you already, right ;) |
| 12:15:11 | <bengee> | no idea about the download, the project is maintained by scor |
| 12:15:26 | <mhausenblas> | ah. ok. so I need to contact him directly? |
| 12:16:22 | <bengee> | yeah, probably best |
| 12:16:28 | <mhausenblas> | ACTION dunno, but RDF inport is possible with that module, right? |
| 12:17:03 | <mhausenblas> | ACTION lets user populate end-user with Protege and then wants to sump it into Drupal |
| 12:17:24 | <mhausenblas> | ACTION thinks he can not write properly any more ;) |
| 12:17:27 | <bengee> | I'd think so, but the module is apparently still very early |
| 12:17:44 | <mhausenblas> | yeah yeah I know, king-o-modest :) |
| 12:18:15 | <mhausenblas> | ACTION should not be so cheeky |
| 12:19:06 | <mhausenblas> | ACTION still thinks that this would be a good showcase for Drupal/RDF, as we have a customer who is willing to give it a try |
| 12:19:33 | <mhausenblas> | ACTION knows that we are willing to sell it :) |
| 12:20:01 | <mhausenblas> | ACTION thanks bengee and keeps him posted as we progress. biab |
| 12:23:23 | <bengee> | great |
| 12:47:22 | <tommorris> | kwijibo: The RDF for beginners session went pretty well. Might be an idea if we had a document explaining the best approach to teaching complete beginners about RDF |
| 12:47:50 | <kwijibo> | so who went, what did you say, what feedback did you get ? :) |
| 12:48:24 | <tommorris> | so, on sat night a fair few people asked over dinner saying that they found the talks interesting but too high-level for people who don't know about RDF |
| 12:48:41 | <tommorris> | ACTION pulls up slides with intention to upload |
| 12:48:45 | <kwijibo> | s/high/low ? |
| 12:49:03 | <tommorris> | high-level - ie. they presumed knowledge of RDF |
| 12:49:37 | <kwijibo> | ah, high, as in hard, not as in overview |
| 12:50:01 | <tommorris> | in the session, i tried to explain that RDF was a model not a syntax |
| 12:50:10 | <tommorris> | and used N3 as the primary way of teaching |
| 12:51:16 | <kwijibo> | did folks grok it? |
| 12:51:22 | <tommorris> | I pegged it to http://www.w3.org/2000/10/swap/Primer.html (timbl's N3 primer) |
| 12:51:24 | <tommorris> | yeah, I think so |
| 12:51:47 | <tommorris> | the problem is that if you give a "here's the sort of thing you can do with it" talk, everyone thinks "yeah, but I can do that some other way" |
| 12:52:03 | <kwijibo> | yeah |
| 12:52:09 | <kwijibo> | exactly |
| 12:52:13 | <tommorris> | and if you give a "here's the abstract model, and, hey, there are tools" talk, everyone thinks "this is interesting, but I don't know how to do anything" |
| 12:53:16 | <tommorris> | I did show off rdflib in Python and also Tabulator in Firefox |
| 12:53:28 | <kwijibo> | pretty much any 'one' thing that you can do with rdf, you can do with something else - it's the multitude of different things you can do that makes it special |
| 12:54:18 | <tommorris> | exactly |
| 12:54:28 | <tommorris> | and you sort of have to take it on faith that there's an interesting destination |
| 12:54:44 | <kwijibo> | eg: you can do much the same with rss2 as sioc - but using sioc you can enable lots of different other things in the same data |
| 12:55:27 | <tommorris> | some people tend to think of RDF as being "sorta like XML", some think it's "sorta like SQL" and some think it's "sorta like Object-Oriented Programming". They are all sorta right. |
| 12:55:49 | <iand> | tommorris: i use turtle when I introduce RDF: http://research.talis.com/2005/rdf-intro/ |
| 12:55:57 | <iand> | btw, thanks for the camp |
| 12:56:01 | <iand> | it was a lot of fun |
| 12:56:36 | <tommorris> | i enjoyed it, but I'm taking some time off before organising another one. ;) |
| 12:59:56 | <tommorris> | http://tommorris.org/files/semanticcamp_rdfbeginners.pdf |
| 13:00:14 | <tommorris> | J:|SemanticCamp slides - RDF for Beginners (PDF) |
| 13:00:57 | <tommorris> | J: PDF slides from my RDF for beginners session at SemanticCamp. Done in traditional 'Keynote' style - ie. visual aid rather than long explanatory prose. |
| 13:05:55 | <danieljohnlewis> | yeah I think the SWEO project suggests N3 |
| 13:10:05 | <danbri> | yep, semanticcamp was great :) |
| 13:12:30 | <kwijibo> | ACTION had a go at explaining RDF for programmers with RDF/JSON http://n2.talis.com/wiki/An_Introduction_to_RDF_with_RDF/JSON |
| 13:12:36 | <danbri> | tommorris, nice slides, one nit, "Directed acylic graph." |
| 13:12:49 | <danbri> | i'm no mathmo but i never understood acyclic in context of rdf |
| 13:13:05 | <danbri> | since we can have loops in the graph. is there some other meaning of acyclic i'm missing? |
| 13:13:23 | <danieljohnlewis> | lightning talks went quite well, we had: Jure Cuhalev (briefly demoing Zemanta), Oleg Lavrovsky (talking about Semantic Wikis and CMSs) and Libby Miller (talking about RDF and Widgets in Joost) |
| 13:13:39 | <danbri> | i have a lightning talk prepared |
| 13:13:43 | <danbri> | it goes like this |
| 13:13:54 | <danbri> | USE XMPP FOR SPARQL |
| 13:13:55 | <danbri> | USE XMPP FOR SPARQL |
| 13:13:55 | <danbri> | USE XMPP FOR SPARQL |
| 13:13:55 | <danbri> | USE XMPP FOR SPARQL |
| 13:13:56 | <danbri> | USE XMPP FOR SPARQL |
| 13:13:59 | <danbri> | END |
| 13:14:17 | <danieljohnlewis> | haha cool :-) |
| 13:14:46 | <iand> | danbri: you're always 10 years ahead of the rest of us |
| 13:40:27 | <EtnaRosso> | can i play with madness? |
| 13:41:03 | <gromgull> | EtnaRosso: sure: http://www.2flashgames.com/f/f-281.htm |
| 13:56:51 | <yvesr> | tommorris: yes, the danbri kissed himself example demonstrates such a loop :-) http://moustaki.org/resources/foaf.rdf |
| 16:28:00 | <EtnaRosso> | danja |
| 16:28:11 | <EtnaRosso> | hi |
| 16:46:41 | <zerok> | hi :) |
| 17:00:00 | <mmealling> | any WebDAV experts around? |
| 17:37:58 | <tuukkah> | bengee, should the autodiscovery link here work? http://semsol.org/semcamp/irc/logs/2008/02/18 |
| 17:39:36 | <bengee> | hmm |
| 17:41:25 | <bengee> | the IRC logs are kept in a different store |
| 17:42:20 | <tuukkah> | i see - so maybe there isn't a simple way to view the triples |
| 17:42:34 | <bengee> | there is a sparql endpoint ;) |
| 17:43:19 | <bengee> | lemme see if I can tweak the link in the template |
| 17:44:15 | <tuukkah> | i don't have nice apps for viewing sparql endpoints =) |
| 17:44:51 | <bengee> | heh |
| 19:26:41 | <bengee> | tuukkah, gotta run, will have to do it tomorrow |
| 20:26:38 | <DanC> | does last.fm do openid? |
| 20:30:03 | <DanC> | setting up shop to do taxes on a new ubuntu box. |
| 20:30:32 | <DanC> | created some new key pairs while I'm at it... for family business. one for ssh and one for openpgp. sigh... why do they have to be separate keys? |
| 20:30:55 | <DanC> | hmm... ubuntu doesn't seem to have ssh server on by default; perhaps that's good... |
| 20:31:37 | <DanC> | WARNING: The following packages cannot be authenticated! |
| 20:31:38 | <DanC> | openssh-server |
| 20:31:42 | <DanC> | hmm... what's up with that? |
| 20:33:34 | <DanC> | ACTION gets the relevant clue in #ubuntu in a matter of seconds. :_ |
| 20:33:36 | <DanC> | :) |
| 20:35:26 | <DanC> | connolly@gamebox:~$ ssh-keygen -l -f /etc/ssh/ssh_host_rsa_key.pub |
| 20:35:26 | <DanC> | 2048 61:92:1d:6b:86:0d:41:ae:24:e5:1a:3e:57:ba:31:2f /etc/ssh/ssh_host_rsa_key.pub |
| 20:36:16 | <yvesr> | DanC: i don't think they support openid for now. but they did promise to support it a while ago. i don't know for when it is planned, though. |
| 20:37:28 | <DanC> | ok... so far I'm openid-only today... trying not to invest in passwords over the net |
| 20:37:39 | <DanC> | i.e. password-per-service |
| 20:37:53 | <DanC> | switching from del.icio.us to magnolia |
| 20:38:00 | <DanC> | or at least: trying out magnolia |
| 20:38:29 | <DanC> | http://ma.gnolia.com/people/DanC |
| 20:38:53 | <DanC> | K:|DanC's bookmarks on magnolia, an openid-happy social bookmarking service |
| 20:39:23 | <dngor> | Aww. |
| 20:39:33 | <DanC> | aww? |
| 20:40:03 | <dngor> | I work at del.icio.us. |
| 20:40:20 | <DanC> | do you have plans for openid? |
| 20:41:06 | <dngor> | I've been focusing on the "2.0" release. Let me check, though. |
| 20:41:34 | <DanC> | I'm a long-time delicious user; it would cost me a lot to leave altogether, so I'd be happy to stay if it grows openid suppport. |
| 20:42:44 | <DanC> | uh-oh... many tasty items on http://swig.xmlhack.com/ ... tough to stay focused on travel accounting and taxes with drupal/RDF stuff in sight... |
| 20:43:30 | <dngor> | Sometimes it's hard to debug things at work, for similar reasons. |
| 20:43:38 | <DanC> | has anybody showed adu how to add titles? let's clean up the in-your-face URLs, please |
| 20:44:02 | <sbp> | DanC: plus there's a new TWSW! http://blogs.talis.com/nodalities/this_weeks_semantic_web/ |
| 20:44:51 | <DanC> | TWSW doesn't do it for me lately; I'm into story telling, and the bullets are either (a) stories I already know or (b) not enough of a story to engage me |
| 20:45:35 | <DanC> | I really liked the first few episodes, though |
| 20:46:08 | <DanC> | ACTION has a vague feeling that he asked sbp to read something when we last chatted... |
| 20:46:41 | <sbp> | hmm. I don't have the same vague feeling, but that's possibly just because I've been doing *so much* reading these past couple of weeks that it's got lost in the mire |
| 20:47:10 | <DanC> | H:see also Noah's recent draft finding on the self-describing web (my notes are in hardcopy; hope to transcribe soon) |
| 20:47:29 | <DanC> | must not have been that important then, sbp |
| 20:47:59 | <sbp> | note that @profile is a SHOULD in http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Drafts/ED-rdfa-syntax-20080217/Overview.html#docconf now by the way |
| 20:48:30 | <DanC> | how about in the last call draft? |
| 20:48:38 | <sbp> | heh, oh dear. in the prose they say ‘There SHOULD be a @profile attribute on the head element that includes the value http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml/vocab.’ and then in the example they do ‘<head profile="http://www.w3.org/ns/rdfa">’ |
| 20:49:00 | <sbp> | there's a last call draft? |
| 20:49:14 | <DanC> | confucious say: the path to enlightment includes syncing examples in your spec with your test suite. :) |
| 20:49:28 | <DanC> | A: |
| 20:49:48 | <DanC> | that's where I got the idea there was a last call draft |
| 20:50:29 | <DanC> | A:| RDFa in XHTML: Syntax and Processing W3C Editor's Draft 17 February 2008 |
| 20:50:31 | <sbp> | oh, it does say Last Call; missed that. same document as A: anyway |
| 20:50:48 | <DanC> | A: seems to be a last-call-to-be draft |
| 20:50:53 | <sbp> | phenny: tell Arnia http://salt.semanticauthoring.org/ |
| 20:50:55 | <phenny> | sbp: I'll pass that on when arnia is around. |
| 20:51:14 | <dngor> | There's no open-id mention on our wiki. I'm adding it with a note that I've observed a long-time user trying other sites because of it. |
| 20:51:32 | <DanC> | thanks! |
| 20:51:44 | <dajobe> | omg salt |
| 20:52:49 | <DanC> | ACTION takes that as a prompt to take a look; misses the "omg" factor |
| 20:53:24 | <dngor> | What's your del. user name? |
| 20:53:28 | <DanC> | connolly |
| 20:54:35 | <DanC> | K:see also [http://del.icio.us/connolly|connolly on del.icio.us] |
| 20:56:40 | <DanC> | ACTION tries to focus... http://dm93.org/z2001/FractalAccounting |
| 20:56:58 | <DanC> | "Americans spend roughly 5.4 billion man-hours computing their taxes.(15) This is more man-hours than used to build every car, van, truck, and airplane manufactured in the United States." |
| 23:48:50 | <daYZman> | hi |
| 23:49:40 | <daYZman> | i found this title and it makes me ponder: Guided Analyses of Logical Inconsistencies Leads to Evolved Ontologies.. it is about a set of analytical techniques for ontology evolution |
| 23:49:53 | <daYZman> | should it be "Leading to" rather than "Leads to"? |
| 23:59:18 | <TedThibodeauJr> | no, I think the title's worded correctly ... |
| 23:59:39 | <TedThibodeauJr> | it encompasses completed, ongoing, and future efforts |
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