Experimental IRC log fenfire-2007-04-30

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These logs are provided as an experiment in indexing discussions using IRCHub.py, Irc2RDF.hs, and SIOC.

12:06:06<benja_>http://tuukka.iki.fi:8000/
12:06:43<tuukkah>it works !-)
12:11:05<benja_>:add Attention economy
12:11:08<benja_>:page 1
12:11:52<benja_>:add 1 "The Great Unread" - Attention inequality
12:12:19<tuukkah>d-i-y yahoo directory \o/
12:12:19<benja_>:add 1.1 Nick Carr: <a href="http://www.roughtype.com/archives/2006/08/the_great_unrea.php">The Great Unread</a>
12:13:17<benja_>:add 1.1 <a href="http://sethf.com/infothought/blog/archives/001057.html">Seth Finkelstein in reply to Carr</a>
12:14:30<benja_>I'm at the uni and don't have my computer with me and I'm thinking hard about these ideas, so I figured I could use your IRC-integrated system to take some notes =)
12:14:53<tuukkah>sure :-)
12:15:39<benja_>:add 1.1.1 "A blog-peasant, one of the Great Unread, comes to the wall of the castle to offer a tribute to a lord, and the lord drops a couple of coins of attention into the peasant's little purse. The peasant is happy, and the lord's hold over his position in the castle is a little bit stronger."
12:18:06<benja_>:add 1.1.1 "'Ghost of Democracy' is a wonderful term. It perpetuates the innocent fraud even as it exposes it."
12:19:08<benja_>:add 1.1.1.2 (Carr cites <a href="http://journalism.nyu.edu/pubzone/weblogs/pressthink/">a blog with the tagline</a> 'Ghost of Democracy in the Media Machine')
12:22:26<benja_>:add 1.1.2 In an <a href="http://www.newsome.org/2006/08/bloggers-challenge-who-do-you-write.shtml#115480142582449361">earlier comment</a> he cites, Seth writes that there are three 'regimes' (afaiu, types of blog):
12:23:21<benja_>:add 1.1.2.1 "'One' == Diaries. Some people keep their diary on-line, and don't mind if others read it.
12:23:34<benja_>:add 1.1.2.1 "'Few' == Socializing, chatting. The intended audience is close friends, and events only of interest to that circle.
12:23:55<benja_>:add 1.1.2.1 "'Many' == Punditry. The goal is to reach as many people as possible with your ideas."
12:25:03<benja_>:add 1.1.2 ""
12:25:10<benja_>hups
12:25:38<benja_>:edit 1.1.2.2 "Some blog evangelists are (local) celebrites who find that a huge number of people are interested in the evangelist's diary and chat, so the evangelist gets the silly idea that diary and chat will revolutize society ("Emergent Blatherocracy"). The evangelist then has an annoying tendency to tell the unsuccessful pundits to be happy to write diary and chat."
12:26:18<tuukkah>are you working via the communicator ?-)
12:28:53<benja_>no, a computing center machine
12:29:10<benja_>on the communicator, extensive quoting like this wouldn't be feasible :)
12:30:46<benja_>:add 1.1 <a href="http://goldhaber.org/">Goldhaber</a> speculates somewhere (can't find it) that an uprising of the attention have-nots is unlikely, since uprisings need leaders, and a leader would by definition not be an attention have-not
12:31:29<benja_>:add 1.1.3 ...but are posts like Finkelstein's a protest by the "attention middle-class?" :-]
12:32:14<tuukkah>the horrors of powerpoint now on your nearest irc channel ;-)
12:32:41<benja_>:add About the notetaker
12:34:16<benja_>:add 2 Now I'm organizing notes into categories, but links to web particles are buried in the notes; will a less hierarchical system also allow for the links to be sorted into their own categories?
12:34:28<benja_>tuukkah: =)
12:35:13<ibid>tuukkah: what, the system has cheesy clipart?
12:36:16<tuukkah>i never knew that was the worst part
12:36:26<benja_>http://www.aaronsw.com/weblog/000931
12:45:54<benja_>:add 2 Todo
12:46:14<benja_>:add 2.2 More readable markup format
12:49:17<benja_>:add 1.1.1 How to get a link from an A-list blog: provide a link to them with intelligent discussion of one of their posts
12:49:29<benja_>:move 1.1.1.1 1.1.1.3
12:53:53<benja_>:add 2.2.1 <a href="http://sophos.berkeley.edu/macfarlane/pandoc/">Pandoc</a>: Haskell library for converting between markup formats, including Markdown and a subset of ReST (GPL)
14:03:58<benja_>:add 1.1 <a href="http://www.shirky.com/writings/powerlaw_weblog.html">Clay Shirky writes</a> that theoretical research shows that "[i]n systems where many people are free to choose between many options, a small subset of the whole will get a disproportionate amount of traffic (or attention, or income), even if no members of the system actively work towards such an outcome"
14:16:55<benja_>:add Uncategorized
14:16:56<benja_>:page 3
14:18:10<benja_>:add 3 To "win," a "product" doesn't have to be better than another on all counts; it matters whether it is better overall
14:20:23<tuukkah>for that i might even be able to give scientific references :-)
14:20:44<benja_>:add 3.1 I prefer Wikipedia to Encyclopedia Britannica Online not only a) because it's free, but also b) because it has articles on more topics I want to read about
14:20:57<benja_>tuukkah: :)
14:21:19<tuukkah>cool two-by-two matrices
14:21:37<tuukkah>or in this occasion even three-by-three =)
14:22:01<benja_>hm? sorry, I don't follow :)
14:22:13<tuukkah>one often-studied independent account of a product is it's price
14:22:19<tuukkah>its
14:22:33<benja_>ok?
14:22:51<tuukkah>so one axis is divided in three based on whether the price is < = or >
14:23:18<benja_>I see
14:23:25<tuukkah>and the other axis on whether the other features in total warrant a < = or >
14:23:30<benja_>and the cells say which product is preferred?
14:23:59<tuukkah>the cells say what kind of marketing strategy you carry out in each position
14:24:48<benja_>oh :)
14:25:00<tuukkah>it's not a problem to have a bad product that costs a lot if you market it suitably =) but of course you don't necessarily want to end in such a position
14:26:32<benja_>:add 3.1.1 The quality of WP articles does bother me occasionally, but overall, WP would "win" on depth even if Britannica was free (I haven't even checked whether they are, nowadays)
14:26:54<benja_>:add 3.1.1 (of course, one might use both)
14:29:04<benja_>:add 3.1 A product that is <em>much</em> better in some way isn't necessarily better overall -- but <em>may</em> be, even if it lacks in other areas
14:29:34<benja_>:add 3.1.2 consider programming languages and libraries, IDEs, community
14:34:32<benja_>:add 3 Many people no longer have a single "home page" on the web -- rather, they have many profile pages on many different services. Can we / should we want to bring back the state where people have a "home" on the web?
14:38:19<benja_>:add 1.1.4 Shirky argues that "is there inequality" is the wrong question, because power laws are so ubiquitous that the answer will always be yes; he says the right question is, "is the inequality fair?" (<a href="http://www.shirky.com/writings/powerlaw_weblog.html#inequality_and_fairness">section link</a>)
14:39:57<benja_>:add 1.1.4.1 I think he means fair = based on merit
14:40:53<tuukkah>perhaps what you're thinking of with this "much better in some way" is that some customers would actually want a different product from what the current market has
14:41:05<benja_>:add 1.1.4.1 he thinks that "the current inequality is mostly fair," but "the system is still young"
14:42:44<tuukkah>so if you can't see a product such as "dictionary" deeper than eb and wikipedia being the same, you can be surprised why both have a strong following
14:42:54<benja_>tuukkah: what I'm thinking is that customers would prefer a product that has the good points of all the products combined, but that there may be a better sweet spot that makes a different trade-off than the current product
14:43:15<benja_>tuukkah: hmm, I see
14:43:20<benja_>that makes sense
14:44:04<tuukkah>all in all, you'd of course want the one product that has the features to fill all your needs :-)
14:44:12<benja_>:)
14:45:24<benja_>:add 1.1.4.1 "Once a power law distribution exists, it can take on a certain amount of homeostasis, the tendency of a system to retain its form even against external pressures. Is the weblog world such a system? Are there people who are as talented or deserving as the current stars, but who are not getting anything like the traffic? Doubtless. Will this problem get worse in the future? Yes." (<a href="http://www.shirky.com/writings/powerlaw_weblog.
14:45:37<tuukkah>but then there are these dark theories of needs and wants that predict new needs will always arise from filled ones
14:45:53<benja_>ok, that was too long for IRC and broke in the middle of the link :-(
14:46:25<benja_></a> -- closing the tag as a band-aid
14:46:47<tuukkah>now it doesn't close in the item list
14:48:12<benja_>tried to edit through the web interface, but now it's even weirder
14:48:56<tuukkah>the log got it right, didn't it?
14:49:17<tuukkah>but it skipped some other entries
14:49:34<benja_>yes, comletely weird
14:50:13<benja_>...no, it's an HTML thing, I think
14:50:28<tuukkah>i don't have proper logs
14:52:08<benja_>if you view source on the lastlog, you can see that the entries are there, the browser just doesn't render them because it considers them an HTML error
14:52:37<benja_>my earlier edit attempt had the bullet point number of the item to be edited wrong
14:55:41<tuukkah>ok
14:56:43<benja_>but it happened to "complete" my :add command, by coincidence of Mozilla parser behavior =]
14:57:47<benja_>anyway, just goes to show the need to process a simple markup language instead of just channeling HTML through :)
15:00:41<tuukkah>someone else would just pipe via tidy :-)
15:04:12<benja_>would that be simpler? perhaps...
15:38:40<benja_>:add 1.1 Seth Finkelstein: <a href="http://sethf.com/infothought/blog/archives/000745.html">Blog power law and big fish / small ponds</a>
15:38:55<benja_>:page 1.1
15:40:34<benja_>:add 1.1.5 "So if the exponential nature of the power law applied to blogs means that, for any given topic, under reasonable circumstances, debate will be dominated by a tiny few - that's in effect an oligarchy."
15:40:45<benja_>:add 1.1.5 "[I]f it's all big fish in small ponds, that still matters in your pond, and being told "Go find another pond" dodges the problem."
15:41:19<benja_>hmm
15:41:22<benja_>:unpage 1.1
15:41:27<benja_>:page 1.1.1
15:41:30<benja_>:page 1.1.2
15:41:34<benja_>:page 1.2.4
15:41:41<benja_>bah
15:41:47<benja_>:page 1.1.4
15:41:50<benja_>:page 1.1.5
16:58:33<benja_>:add 3 How to order log entries (of all kinds in general, of the notetaker in particular) when merging different sources? Proposal:
16:59:41<benja_>:add 3.3 Entries are ordered in the logs they come from; construct a partial order P from this
16:59:59<benja_>:add 3.3 When P orders two entries, that's their order
17:00:23<benja_>:add 3.3 Otherwise, if they have different timestamps, these give their order
17:01:24<benja_>:add 3.3 Otherwise, order them by global id (which needs to be assigned somehow; through cryptographic hash, if there is no other way to construct one)
17:02:47<benja_>I believe this ordering can't conflict with P, because it seems to me that to conflict with P, it would have to order some pair of items differently from P
17:03:00<benja_>and since it orders all items that P orders the same way that P does...
17:18:05<benja_>:add 3 Hypothesis: it's hard to implement features just because they're a good idea; it's a lot easier to implement them because living without them is almost unbearable
17:19:41<benja_>:add 3.4 for example: at this point, moving away from the notes being a simple hierarchy would be *a good idea*. but having all the notes on a single page -- that would be *unbearable* at this point
17:19:55<benja_>:add 3.4 (the latter got done, the former not yet)
17:20:11<benja_>:page 3.1
17:50:47<benja_>:page 3.3
17:51:05<benja_>:edit 3.3 How to order log entries (of all kinds in general, of the notetaker in particular) when merging different sources?
17:51:11<benja_>:add 3.3 Proposal:
17:51:33<benja_>:move 3.3.1 3.3.5
17:51:45<benja_>:move 3.3.1 3.3.4
17:51:46<benja_>:move 3.3.1 3.3.3
17:51:49<benja_>:move 3.3.1 3.3.2
17:52:24<benja_>:add 3.3 the partial order could be based on cryptographic hashing
17:54:39<benja_>:add 3.4 Does this mean that when there is no problem so pressing that you really need to fix it, it's better to spend more time <em>using</em> the system, so that the next must-fix problem turns up sooner?
18:00:27<benja_>:add 3 Organizations based on online cooperation: the "Long Hallway"
18:00:37<benja_>:page 3.5
18:01:41<benja_>:add Jonathan Follett, A List Apart (web design magazine): <a href="http://alistapart.com/articles/longhallway">The Long Hallway</a>
18:01:53<benja_>oops
18:01:57<benja_>:move 4 3.5
18:04:11<benja_>:add 3.5.1 <a href="http://www.accenture.com/">Accenture</a> is a 129,000-person company "with many branch offices, but no physical headquarters"
18:05:11<benja_>:add 3.5.1 <a href="http://careerjournal.com/">CareerJournal.com</a>: <a href="http://www.careerjournal.com/myc/officelife/20060607-hymowitz.html">Have Advice, Will Travel: Running</a>
18:05:42<benja_>:edit 3.5.1.2 <a href="http://careerjournal.com/">CareerJournal.com</a>: <a href="http://www.careerjournal.com/myc/officelife/20060607-hymowitz.html">Have Advice, Will Travel: Running A 'Virtual' Company on the Fly</a>
18:09:42<benja_>Google Video has something about Dasher: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5078334075080674416&q=user%3A%22Google+engEDU%22&hl=en
19:14:20<benja_>:add 3.4 perhaps features that are <em>exciting</em> rather than just a good idea are also easy to implement, though?
19:14:48<benja_>:page 3.4.4
19:15:03<benja_>:add 3.4.4 note that it's developing such ideas that the notetaker is for =)
19:15:19<benja_>(or that's one thing it's for, anyway)
19:18:05<benja_>:add 3 Guy Kawasaki: <a href="http://blog.guykawasaki.com/2006/01/remember_the_sc.html">The Art of Execution</a>
19:41:56<benja_>hmm, pandoc seems overkill for this
19:42:40<benja_>:add 2.2.1.1 ...seems overkill for this
19:53:59<benja_>:add 2.2.1.1 hand-coding something instead
20:01:01<benja_>:add 2 Done
20:01:04<benja_>:page 2.3
20:01:10<benja_>:move 2.2.1 2.3
20:01:54<benja_>ibid: hmm, fenfirebot isn't announcing the change
20:02:08<benja_>tuukkah: when you see this, could you update your server, please? :-)
20:02:14<ibid>probably got killed by the oom
20:02:20<ibid>yep
20:02:34<fenfirebot_>hippaladuida
20:07:02<benja_>:add 2 How the markup syntax works
20:07:08<benja_>:page 2.4
20:07:50<benja_>:add 2.4 \*This\* is *emphasized*
20:08:16<benja_>:add 2.4 \`This\` is rendered `as code`
20:08:41<benja_>ah crap, since tuukkah hasn't updated the server yet, it's not converted =)
20:08:47<benja_>:deltree 2.4
20:09:35<benja_>anyway, [links] work like [this] | http://example.org/ | http://example.net
20:09:47<benja_>and backslash escapes
20:09:51<benja_>thatsit
20:11:54<benja_>markup can't be nested
20:25:51<benja_>huh:
20:26:15<benja_>:add 3.5.1.2 "For all the challenges, Accenture executives say virtual management works for them. For one thing, they don't have the overhead costs of a headquarters, which, they say, would be steeper than their extra travel costs." (and they have a *lot* of extra travel)
20:26:24<benja_>that's interesting =)
20:27:02<benja_>oh, and 'lot' is in italics on the server, too =)
20:34:34<benja_>er, (anon), it would be nice if you could be bothered to put in a nick
21:11:42<benja_>hrm, there seems to be a misunderstanding, perhaps
21:11:48<benja_>:del 4
21:11:50<benja_>:del 5
21:11:56<benja_>:del 4
21:13:33<benja_>:add NOTE: This system logs the channel #fenfire on the [Freenode] IRC network | http://freenode.net/
21:14:17<benja_>:add 4 If you want to participate, please join #fenfire on Freenode

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